From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jan 23 17:31:37 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JHqwK-0003eM-T3 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:31:37 -0800 Received: from squid17.laughingsquid.net ([72.32.93.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JHqwD-0003dp-Kl for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:31:36 -0800 Received: (qmail 1292 invoked by uid 48); 23 Jan 2008 17:31:18 -0800 Received: from c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net (c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net [75.68.233.37]) by webmail.ixkey.info (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:31:17 -0800 Message-ID: <20080123173117.ava3cogc0okwccwo@webmail.ixkey.info> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:31:17 -0800 From: mungojelly@ixkey.info To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zo .e'e References: <20080105225008.k2wyw47jywwowc44@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560801060549r667c5c87kcdbf542852bce09d@mail.gmail.com> <20080107141153.pki44f5eassogwc4@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560801071444k71b98c50h38879b1c9451ba3e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 287 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@ixkey.info Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Quoting adam@wustl.edu: > I'd just like to point out that the definitions being discussed > here (particularly the .e'e and .e'i) are very far from official. > They're part of a BPFK checkpoint that hasn't be approved, and with > the changes, they're likely not to be approved. So take them > with a grain of salt. I've decided that since Cniglic is a language which not only draws on the vocabulary of Lojban, but also intends to be a connected antechamber of Lojban, where some of the words of Lojban as it lives are taught (not just words that resemble words of Lojban), this means that Cniglic must inherit not just the meanings & shapes of the words, but their history, context & yes, politics. It would be very helpful therefore to the half-dozen or so people who are interested in Cniglic so far, if you could explain more about what meanings you believe zo .e'e and zo .e'i have been given, and/or what meanings you feel they ought to be given. I respect Xorxes' opinion, but I'm not trying to teach Xorxese [zo'o]. I would like to hear from anyone who feels they're involved, and I'm going to try to pass on to Cniglic the whole width & depth of the conversation. (You're also welcome to join the world of Cniglic yourselves, of course, and directly participate in its formation.) From my perspective, zo .e'e and zo .e'i seem to have been given very little meaning so far by anyone. They have been given shallow associations with English and occassional glances. I believe that words can hold meanings which go much deeper than what has been given to zo .e'e and zo .e'i up until now. More than meanings, I believe that words have many other kinds of deep information that travel with them, such as how they are used, taught, learned, and related to. Cniglic itself intends not to change any of its words' meanings, after all, but only this other realm of behaviors: How people relate to those words, teach them & learn them, and how they make use of them. I believe that we can come to a consensus [.e'ero'a] which gives deep accepted meanings to the attitudinals. I also believe this process will take years. We've only exchanged a few words recently on zo .e'e and zo .e'i, enough to barely open a dialogue. Cniglic is meant to help both to sustain this dialogue over time, and to make the results of the inquiry more accessible to the future, so that the next rounds of the conversation will be able to take us deeper. mu'o mi'e la mungodjelis. no'u la bret.