From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Apr 23 05:42:59 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JoeJN-0005Lz-Pd for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:42:59 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JoeJ4-0005LP-EG for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:42:57 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so2354270fga.0 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Sof4pttRJsfI58QPLnp1+Tx4kfmehtMY96f96ANsOW8=; b=vVqFzLgZ5QUTh3O/GyCg44jvcM5YWQTcxevIGqTvzvoLOBTuiDvHF9WImMVl/tFi1w5QdMjPg1CK0bsKBaHirVhF+rfbN9mR5qPQ2crCG4QAYhZQ6QtxemGO/fnF4u5b7NqfWG+i+LhY5XGCkwykkwRAy65X1xAqNhSxJlkgBoQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nbCfJOU4x6M9+qpXyNb1hcZcOOZxz+/RlQRYYksnRAMYZ+exIyxwNHLgk/ghlREPuEfbHyIfnGejU2imhegBdFeQnIEETmEIFuwHJOnRxBl9/DjuS1uxcCVQkTGddXscKI8b0IP1b9UIDkadzwgbcGXDvgeInf3YQf/tlcUBAy4= Received: by 10.86.97.7 with SMTP id u7mr3088841fgb.54.1208954545680; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.33.18 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560804230542n908860oad037f155dfa4a8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:42:25 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zo zu'i In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <8F2B6180-9E5B-41E0-AAE9-1CF58B48C5D0@gmail.com> <925d17560804220552x1bd0074di62578b252b20188d@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 534 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 4/22/08, Brett Williams wrote: > > The place in between where I believe the distinction must > rest is precisely upon the point of conversational utility, that is: > "zu'i" means that the speaker expects that the listener has an > idea of what situation is being described, and that they can > easily guess what the "zu'i"ed place is. The speaker is > encouraging the listener to fill in the blank with the obvious > thing; they're saying "I'm not going to say what this thing > is, but it's pretty much what you'd expect it to be." That's a pretty accurate description for {zo'e} too. > So if you said "the people exited the building via the zu'i", > I would think you meant the front door. And if you omitted the via place, you'd probably get the same result. > If you said "the people > exited the ba'e burning building via the zu'i", I would think: > What's the typical way to exit a burning building? Maybe > via a fire escape? It doesn't help much to consider the > abstract [xe klama], which could be a spaceship on a > galactic perspective, Or flying if you include flies and not just humans for x1. > nor the very particular situation, which > might as well be "zo'e". It seems to me that the situation > for which a "zu'i" is typical must be a situation being > understood by the listener in the particular communication > context. It's hard to think of a situation where using {zu'i} is more informative than {zo'e}, or just leaving the place empty. Perhaps {na'e bo zu'i} might be more useful, but that would only be used to create some sort of tension: the place is filled by something unexpected, but I'm not (yet) telling just what. mu'o mi'e xorxes