From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jun 25 09:26:55 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KBXpf-0003mc-QM for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:55 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KBXpb-0003lY-2a for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:55 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b50so1682961pyh.30 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=qnOWSENbT+COzEwTsIslCEcBqw59L6oo9qNIr6+5ZJs=; b=MYX/MaBzlK9nzI9CfErXd4RHG/0bjI3PZlnfE9N0QmL+0I7xXizNZXMzb4A1mFauPa 3t4znaLw2jjnkk3yjhOanObr4eLjeiUFJm1PgoRNEuyvswum0TMu7Gf3sWilhVp854QZ nfdHiiEWKBo9yQcp5plwdeE/JREn/WQTPifI8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=kIc4NO1NrB19rWcOTPnOXR+p0bLGR+Cq8aNSSy6qAxJdiRwM6myGMGoh2gvPdBzT0V nzym/6uj1u6WroXmDX9dD8dFGRgmtl6ldpGz6zwzYCpZpXdLDBczU3XQwtD4+ogSBtun 67m7adMCeJ+VrdzJ45EX8P4V4fYI4ZD8ou7J8= Received: by 10.115.75.14 with SMTP id c14mr6008931wal.45.1214411207449; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.94.16 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0806250926h68346ff6u5a07bd6382f6923c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:26:47 +0200 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: grammar terms In-Reply-To: <925d17560806250716w197d2163oabe93f7b7df9eec@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0806250334k3c0aa483y8e879dc573e913ad@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560806250716w197d2163oabe93f7b7df9eec@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 653 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: >> Can tense (FAhA, VEhA, ZEhA, VIhA, VA, ZI, PU, ...) & aspect (ZAhO, >> TAhE) & modal (BAI) be said to be the main categories of sumtcita? > > If tense specifies the when (and by extension the where) of an event, > then VEhA, ZEhA and VIhA don't really belong in "tense". They are more > like aspect in that they specify properties of the event independently of > when/where it takes place. I rather find the word "tense" to be implying a "relation" between some kind of base points (a thing is "tensed" by other things), which I think justifies Wikipedia's definition that grammatical tense is also about "duration", a temporal relation between a beginning point and an ending point. In this respect, VEhA and ZEhA have the same mode of specification with FAhA/VA/ZI/PU. I included VIhA with tense because it does come to specify the where of an event if dimensionality means the sort of ground "where" a phenomenon occurs (e.g. {vi'a} can specify the where of the colors of a two-dimensional photograph). > {nau} could also belong in "tense", but the > other member of CUhE is more general. I tend to question the functionality of {cu'e} as long as I attempt to distinguish tense from modal or aspect. But maybe the distinction itself is not really so much important in Lojban. At least I would like to see some systematic grouping of these sumtcita selma'os. > I imagine that "modal" was first used for CAhA, not for BAI. That corresponds > better to what "modality" means in linguistics. BAIs have nothing to do > with modality. At some point someone must have misused "modal" to refer > to BAIs and somehow it stuck. I'm also interested in the Wikipedia article ("Linguistic modality") discussing "propositional attitudes" as an element of modality, which may allow some of the Lojban attitudinals to be called "modals" as well. >> Does the word "cnima'o" mean the attitudinals in general (UI1, UI2, >> UI3, ...) or just UI1? > > According to jbovlaste, attitudinals in general. UI1 contains several > indicators that are not about emotions, so it doesn't really make a > natural "cinmo" class. But if some UIs are not about emotions, "cnima'o" wouldn't cover attitudinals in general. Clearly UI2 and UI3 are not about emotions. If attitude/attitudinal, not emotion, is the generic idea of the UI series, we need some alternative to "cnima'o". mu'o mi'e tijlan