From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 22 09:44:39 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLKyd-00033s-KA for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:44:39 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.246]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLKyZ-00033j-KY for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:44:39 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so1553353rvf.46 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=i6nfoJN/cTJt1IAcv3Haw8QwjbELKlz4V9e+0+vdntA=; b=lPG6p7pma7YiiD60WnW3BBtbRo7Q9bbtfRPCmStH7AybjwdclTEZERTOM1IBcsMcOD QrjQL1FcF1QUYh4YjKonC3Eu3VGd9fLCtU6f8QPInWmeQXWEXeFospKfHhI7I3sB7Ews 0Xi3s3zrJN4uiA6Fwsx6MwGtEAfLSN/WCT3ZA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=Pq8xaLO4EGTtuSjtENjaxgedmORqISRmhcIew3JfMPMvNwDr/58QmXVE0dCv7kzY9i WCswHhBEoHx+SGE/ZMQ1Z8/Ug9EyOYJ0+cxy/0606iHRWPIPkSDYj39KisBq3pB57FlS /odVHH7LvVj35Q+uLY6WWX4iQG/2vR87aYdJs= Received: by 10.141.19.9 with SMTP id w9mr11928rvi.202.1216745074280; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.179.16 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <96f789a60807220944g64b25921hb301ef3936e7e052@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:44:34 -0400 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160807211720o16c7ab0dn7f6a066b0c9486d2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807211731r55d2acbcw2d3a3098f1a0775b@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807211735hb755883rfcdb56e118a0aa7e@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160807211801y5e0652e5wa868adf6e9b2c80c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220522q6283b3d9ja3c2719107c3a8b0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220548r3f94b667w5ec9a5a2af89c762@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220629m32d0ae9eld1ac1acbc2d3af94@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 708 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Jorge Llambías wrote: >> > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Jorge Llambías wrote: >> >> > >> >> > lo nanmu poi mi viska ro lo karce poi ke'a vecnu ke'a >> >> > The man who I saw all the cars he sold. >> >> > >> >> > In English, there is a logically equivalent reversed version: >> >> > >> >> > The man who sold only those cars I saw. >> >> > >> >> > But in Lojban we don't have a restricted quantifier "only", so >> >> > we don't seem to have that option. >> >> >> >> lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu ro lo po'o karce poi mi viska ke'a >> >> ? >> > >> > The "ro" is wrong, because I might have seen some other >> > car he didn't sell. >> > >> > And the po'o says that he didn't sell _anything_ besides >> > the cars I saw, but what we need to say is that he didn't sell >> > _any car_ besides the ones I saw. He might have sold other >> > things. >> >> Oh, I thought that's what you wanted. You wanted to say the only cars >> he sold were those that you saw, but he might not have sold all of >> those? > > I wanted something logically equivalent to: > >> >> > lo nanmu poi mi viska ro lo karce poi ke'a vecnu ke'a >> >> > The man who I saw all the cars he sold. > > but that will also move "vecnu" up and "viska" down. > >> lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi po'o mi viska ke'a >> >> works fine for that. "The man who sold cars that were (only those) seen by me. > > {po'o} seems to apply to the restriction on the cars, not > to the cars. I read that as "He sold cars that are only > restricted to my having seen them", but it doesn't preclude > his selling other cars as well. > Well, I think we'll have to disagree on this point. To me "poi po'o" means "restricted solely to". Without the po'o there, we already are restricting the set ("the cars that were seen by me" as opposed to using noi, which would not restrict it), but adding the po'o at this point inthe utterance adds exclusivity as well. --gejyspa