From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Nov 12 04:17:57 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0EfU-0001BD-QC for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:17:57 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.248]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0EfR-0001Aw-6T for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:17:56 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so381683rvf.46 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:17:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=x9Cdwl5KIwn2PSVsH2WGLEDiLNZPSoE+bW1c8aZytV4=; b=xavkztQQ0guqVQBgYj3g+OTOAWNzhK/K0Q7FtsO9SAETcxekLN/1DedDvc2vP0dB0j 5z+xw76lcjTICBmW993qkSGO5K/qhQwYGLnpxmZuNDix2zoCIOYnv4Z9WMbdzvLDPS1b KkCrfChRu01USoUvQzrfXiB1Pxr2LqOmhb5Yw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=LJS5CQylzOam5l1rU0LK4uB7qz4JQNYWGD6/gxyRfRvvTZnTa/zIMRuDwOnkxNes5n Dthd6CWvX2tTIYpjqS3RrVW7GjCoF7SzI+znnypLRwHpevcb/KBGfLKN3upF7HuhLM8S mwnI1RbtpuTv+v87tVqb56PJziRVOGAOYtInc= Received: by 10.142.89.13 with SMTP id m13mr3504455wfb.185.1226492271983; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.174.12 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:17:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <702226df0811120417j1527af0cxef2b07c159c725f1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:17:51 +1800 From: "Jon \"Top Hat\" Jones" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la/le In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9163_29868018.1226492271964" References: <71550650811111530v3febc4a1t30b7f69427cdbde1@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560811111631s588c211ds6a248e0a6b63cd69@mail.gmail.com> <200811112253.01102.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1013 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_9163_29868018.1226492271964 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:44 PM, M CHILDS wrote: > I'm still having trouble understanding la and le... so for instance > > ninmu is a selbri > and le would be a sumti > > le ninmu > > and the structure of ninmu is > x1 is a woman > > so for the distinction between THE and A? > and why is someone's name x1 = la? > > and why are le and la necessary if they are place holders for the object, > when the selbri describes that object? > > ------------------------------ > Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious > email. Sign up today. > Anything which can conceivably occupy the x1 of a gismu can be {le gismu}. {cribe}, by itself, for example, is an observative, as in "Bear!", just as {fagri} is "Fire!". Using a gismu in this way is what's called an observative. (As a side note, {cribe} actually means {zo'e cribe zo'e}: "something is a bear of species something", and is a brivla.) {le cribe} means "the bear", that is, a particular bear that you have in mind, whether it be the stuffed bear you had as a kid, or the bear that ate your porridge. This is different from {cribe} in that you are indicating one particular bear. It can be anything that you, the speaker, would call a bear, whether it be an actual bear or not. {la cribe} means "Bear", as in something which is named Bear, whether that be Frank Bear, the author, a large dog named Bear (which, I believe, one of us has), or even a plane named Bear. This is different from both {cribe} and {le cribe} in that you are indicating something which may not have any resemblance to a bear, but for whatever reason bears the name. (Ugh, a pun....) There is also {lo cribe}, which means "a bear", that is, anything which could conceivably be a bear. In this case, you are not indicating anything in particular, but a general class. In this case, your teddy bear could not (arguably) be {lo cribe}, Frank Bear certainly would not, but the black bears of the Americas and the one that ate your porridge are all {lo cribe}. {la}, {le}, and {lo} are what are known as articles: they alert the listener that that which follows is a referrent, and also perform the task of converting a gismu into a sumti. Take, for instance, the two sentences: ninmu clite woman-ish type-of being polite (A feminine kind of politeness?) x1 is a woman-ish type-of being polite in matter x2 according to custom x3 le ninmu cu clite the woman is polite the woman is polite in matter x2 according to custom x3 In the first sentence, ninmu combines with clite in what is called a tanru, which is simlar to a metaphor or compound word, whereas in the second the article {le} turns ninmu into a sumti whitch fills in the x1 of {clite}. I hope I'm not confusing anyone.... -- mu'o mi'e .topy'at. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu ------=_Part_9163_29868018.1226492271964 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:44 PM, M CHILDS <m_chi919@msn.com> wrote:
I'm still having trouble understanding la and le... so for instance

ninmu is a selbri
and le would be a sumti

le ninmu

and the structure of ninmu is
 x1 is a woman

so for the distinction between THE and A?
and why is someone's name x1 = la?

and why are le and la necessary if they are place holders for the object, when the selbri describes that object?

Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. Sign up today.

Anything which can conceivably occupy the x1 of a gismu can be {le gismu}. {cribe}, by itself, for example, is an observative, as in "Bear!", just as {fagri} is "Fire!". Using a gismu in this way is what's called an observative. (As a side note, {cribe} actually means {zo'e cribe zo'e}: "something is a bear of species something", and is a brivla.)

{le cribe} means "the bear", that is, a particular bear that you have in mind, whether it be the stuffed bear you had as a kid, or the bear that ate your porridge. This is different from {cribe} in that you are indicating one particular bear. It can be anything that you, the speaker, would call a bear, whether it be an actual bear or not.

{la cribe} means "Bear", as in something which is named Bear, whether that be Frank Bear, the author, a large dog named Bear (which, I believe, one of us has), or even a plane named Bear. This is different from both {cribe} and {le cribe} in that you are indicating something which may not have any resemblance to a bear, but for whatever reason bears the name. (Ugh, a pun....)

There is also {lo cribe}, which means "a bear", that is, anything which could conceivably be a bear. In this case, you are not indicating anything in particular, but a general class. In this case, your teddy bear could not (arguably) be {lo cribe}, Frank Bear certainly would not, but the black bears of the Americas and the one that ate your porridge are all {lo cribe}.

{la}, {le}, and {lo} are what are known as articles: they alert the listener that that which follows is a referrent, and also perform the task of converting a gismu into a sumti.

Take, for instance, the two sentences:

ninmu clite
woman-ish type-of being polite (A feminine kind of politeness?)
x1 is a woman-ish type-of being polite in matter x2 according to custom x3

le ninmu cu clite
the woman is polite
the woman is polite in matter x2 according to custom x3

In the first sentence, ninmu combines with clite in what is called a tanru, which is simlar to a metaphor or compound word, whereas in the second the article {le} turns ninmu into a sumti whitch fills in the x1 of {clite}.

I hope I'm not confusing anyone....

--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
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