From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Jan 02 10:16:48 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LIoZk-0001fu-5c for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:16:48 -0800 Received: from web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.200.108]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LIoZd-0001eo-W1 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:16:47 -0800 Received: (qmail 2306 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2009 18:16:35 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=6mfjnXPF3KmQLSb3JR4cHWI/NPdToWEWrW4JgjafXDy3HqNiIIHH3Dy2Qu9Z7avXqsh25f7KGbFwxQJmh+HoawSRW8RChUBS3KtFqweXYhlIACPB07ZBqtxxmMursjadCGqqzPBF28lRIg8jcNVGI4mNr2TUZyEoqqN1q1EqGR8=; X-YMail-OSG: jjactYoVM1kNsdoRAT1IgdkFxUGA5X44CQuztBroSGBZlVJMOa_PU.K9IUl0jTRk3dzZnOsnKizaIymHe0u.WpOy28xzwpxScvNih.DuiIgJJKie.U_EAyQ7jeDiuoDyTQew1jRbsqUK13CvTxSv_Tm_zM9XSB5eCXCv_BPQPvMX.SZfI4lGFM2TzEtrYCYakxGF.cv_6BPH0OYucI_DmJPEdy6vfaI- Received: from [84.195.52.81] by web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:16:35 PST Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:16:35 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Gysel Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: fa fe fi se te... To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <5715b9300901020811l2f68cb0bka08ef53717326ddd@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1591885375-1230920195=:1003" Message-ID: <737719.1003.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1143 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: to_mu1975@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0-1591885375-1230920195=:1003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >if I say:=A0 mi se tavla fi do le cukta=A0 what does this mean? =A0=A0 =A0[se tavla] is the selbri here, with place structure: =A0=A0 =A0x1(the one talked to)=A0 [se tavla]=A0 x2(the talker) x3(subject)= x4(in language) =A0=A0 =A0(which is the same structure except that x1 and x2 are swapped) =A0=A0 =A0if we use fi in this bridi, it refers to the x3 of this particula= r selbri (se tavla), =A0=A0 =A0so fi refers to the subject of the talking. =A0=A0 =A0mi se tavla fi do le cukta =3D I am talked to (by someone unspeci= fied) about =A0=A0 =A0you in language "the book"=20 =A0=A0 =A0fa fe fi fo fu refer to the sumti of the bridi it is in (in this = case 'se tavla'), =A0=A0 =A0not to the sumti of the bridi it was before the conversion with s= e. >ok, so the se type words modify the selbri before the fa type words have a= ny effect on the sumti. =A0 =A0=A0 =A0yes >So "mi se tavla fi do lo cukta lo lojban" =3D "do tavla fi mi do lo cukta = lo lojban"=20 =A0=A0 =A0That's not true: =A0=A0 =A0mi se tavla fi do lo cukta lo lojban=3D i am talked to (by someon= e) about you in the language "lo cukta lo lojban" (which is not a language) =A0=A0 =A0If you wanted to say: I am talked to by you about the book in Loj= ban =A0=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 =A0it would be : "mi se tavla fe do lo cukta la lojban" =A0=A0 =A0And so really we wouldn't need the fe here =A0=A0=A0 =3D> mi se tavla do le cukta la lojban =A0=A0 =A0which is the same as =A0=A0 =A0do tavla mi le cukta la lojban =A0=A0=A0=20 Tom. --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Luke Bergen wrote: From: Luke Bergen Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: fa fe fi se te... To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 5:11 PM ok, so the se type words modify the selbri before the fa type words have an= y effect on the sumti.=A0 So "mi se tavla fi do lo cukta lo lojban" =3D "do= tavla fi mi do lo cukta lo lojban" =3D "you are talked to by someone about= me in language book "= .=A0 xu mi drani - Luke Bergen On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Timo Paulssen wrote: Hi Luke, it isn't really a precedence that causes this behavior, but think of this c= ase like that: The selbri of {mi tavla do le cukta} is {tavla}. The selbri of {mi se tavla fi do le cukta} is {se tavla} thus, the place structure used in the sentence is "x1 is talked to by x2 ab= out x3 in language x4", so that the sentence means {i am talked to about you in= the language the book} (note how after the fi, the next place is the fo place! = - it might just be that you confused fi with fe, though u'i i'a) I hope every clarity has been crushed =A0mu'o mi'e timos =0A=0A=0A --0-1591885375-1230920195=:1003 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii



>if I say:  mi se tavla fi do le cukta  what does this mean?

    [se tavla] is the selbri here, with place structure:
    x1(the one talked to)  [se tavla]  x2(the talker) x3(subject) x4(in language)
    (which is the same structure except that x1 and x2 are swapped)

    if we use fi in this bridi, it refers to the x3 of this particular selbri (se tavla),
    so fi refers to the subject of the talking.
    mi se tavla fi do le cukta = I am talked to (by someone unspecified) about
    you in language "the book"


    fa fe fi fo fu refer to the sumti of the bridi it is in (in this case 'se tavla'),
    not to the sumti of the bridi it was before the conversion with se.


>ok, so the se type words modify the selbri before the fa type words have any effect on the sumti.  

    yes

>So "mi se tavla fi do lo cukta lo lojban" = "do tavla fi mi do lo cukta lo lojban"

    That's not true:
    mi se tavla fi do lo cukta lo lojban= i am talked to (by someone) about you in the language "lo cukta lo lojban" (which is not a language)

    If you wanted to say: I am talked to by you about the book in Lojban
    
    it would be : "mi se tavla fe do lo cukta la lojban"
    And so really we wouldn't need the fe here
    => mi se tavla do le cukta la lojban

    which is the same as
    do tavla mi le cukta la lojban
   

Tom.

--- On Fri, 1/2/09, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: fa fe fi se te...
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 5:11 PM

ok, so the se type words modify the selbri before the fa type words have any effect on the sumti.  So "mi se tavla fi do lo cukta lo lojban" = "do tavla fi mi do lo cukta lo lojban" = "you are talked to by someone about me in language book <no space left to deal with lo lojban so parse error>".  xu mi drani

- Luke Bergen


On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Timo Paulssen <timonator@perpetuum-immobile.de> wrote:
Hi Luke,

it isn't really a precedence that causes this behavior, but think of this case
like that:

The selbri of {mi tavla do le cukta} is {tavla}.
The selbri of {mi se tavla fi do le cukta} is {se tavla}
thus, the place structure used in the sentence is "x1 is talked to by x2 about
x3 in language x4", so that the sentence means {i am talked to about you in the
language the book} (note how after the fi, the next place is the fo place! - it
might just be that you confused fi with fe, though u'i i'a)

I hope every clarity has been crushed
 mu'o mi'e timos



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