From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 16 06:09:23 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LjCZH-0002jK-II for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:09:23 -0700 Received: from mail-gx0-f175.google.com ([209.85.217.175]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LjCZC-0002j4-8T for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:09:23 -0700 Received: by gxk23 with SMTP id 23so5062244gxk.10 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:09:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ole4bOERUjnPJH6L4Xr+6Giu0/sgPjyasnKTbwD5bNk=; b=LB0q3WjvmgM2N/QddsXEQEOY0KYf5Vxu2rslMxb14UsukIlBSCCvvfj/bEqVbeZEUE XajOVaWHyMzJ2IUC96cSsqk8eGS357hXkkzoSytR1GCIQ8QPlSmOQQ7MM12DsNEMPPej v9Df6i9z/OJtEZlWpz4b+JU/F6AxeXBcC5viM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=nxPOsrgoHkyPfMDQjRO5z6wY4mYNWtP/bx4lxBHDBqDGTlleI1cQwU61ZLVEVAu+y9 a4BRZi3QnRSWBgy9aVN7JkKcGShco807XK8PoX9oXPxmefiP2uY5s+zQU6eAqxRZhTF/ KxvGhWFtLeHbiOO/pRdjDGVtuC8vAKuG0egsQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.100.139 with SMTP id y11mr1197793vcn.117.1237208950087; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:09:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60903151944p381f842v388624e85ecf1f28@mail.gmail.com> References: <66941D44-2E0E-4A9B-8882-27FE28D2C0F4@zoominternet.net> <96f789a60903151944p381f842v388624e85ecf1f28@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:09:10 -0400 Message-ID: <4643bbcd0903160609y36b6699dw78cf01afc17032cf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Q about general statements From: Sara Brand To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e646544efba0ae04653c2754 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1416 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: seraneko@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0016e646544efba0ae04653c2754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something interesting to note though is the Vatican, which technically is a city, is not in a country. Therefor it's incorrect to say that all cities are in countries. - serys. On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Robert Baruch > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm totally n00b at Lojban. I'm hoping someone has some advice! > > > > I'd like to state that "Cities are in countries." I'm pretty sure this > > statement is logically meant to say that every particular instance of a > city > > is a member of one and only one country. Maybe I'm making a mountain out > of > > a molehill and there's some easy way to say this, but here's my thought > > process: > > > > I've been puzzling through chapter 6 of the reference grammar. At first I > > started off with "loi tcadu cu cmima ??? gugde." but the description of > > "loi" says that this really means "some". The example shown is loi cinfo > cu > > xabju le fi'ortu'a. = Lions dwell in Africa, but then it goes on to say > that > > this statement says nothing about ALL lions. > > > > lo'e doesn't seem to work either, because again, that refers to a typical > > something, and doesn't include ALL somethings. > > > > Next we come to "ro", which means all-of, so "ro le tcadu...": all-of > > the-ones-described-as cities... but that still doesn't quite say what I > > want: "All cities are in countries" doesn't imply a bidirectional n-to-1 > > relationship (If Paris is a city, and all cities are in countries, then > > Paris is in countries -- exists in multiple countries at once.) > > > > Okay, the next section seems promising, in that it lists je'abo, that > which > > indeed is. So "je'abo le tcadu cu cmima...": That-which-indeed-is > > one-described-as-a city is a member of... > > > > But I'm having trouble with "one and only one country". "pa le gugde", > one > > something-described-as-a country" again doesn't imply the bidirectional > > relationship I'm looking for. > > > > Halp? > > > Actually, you basically had it... ro tcadu cu se stizu pa gugde. > The key is that when there is more then one quantifier, each "scopes" > over those that follow. You will see this covered in detail in > chapter 16 of the grammar. So what this means is that for each city, > there is exactly one country in which it is situated. It does NOT mean > that all cities are located in the same country (which would be the > case if you had reversed it as "pa gugde cu stizu ro tcadu"). > > Hope that helps? > > (P.S. My son's first name is the same as your last name) > > --gejyspa > > > > --0016e646544efba0ae04653c2754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Something interesting to note though is the Vatican, which technically is a= city, is not in a country. Therefor it's incorrect to say that all cit= ies are in countries.

- serys.

On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Michael Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Robert B= aruch
<autophile@zoominternet.ne= t> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm totally n00b at Lojban. I'm hoping someone has some advice= !
>
> I'd like to state that "Cities are in countries." I'= m pretty sure this
> statement is logically meant to say that every particular instance of = a city
> is a member of one and only one country. =A0Maybe I'm making a mou= ntain out of
> a molehill and there's some easy way to say this, but here's m= y thought
> process:
>
> I've been puzzling through chapter 6 of the reference grammar. At = first I
> started off with "loi tcadu cu cmima ??? gugde." but the des= cription of
> "loi" says that this really means "some". The exam= ple shown is loi cinfo cu
> xabju le fi'ortu'a. =3D Lions dwell in Africa, but then it goe= s on to say that
> this statement says nothing about ALL lions.
>
> lo'e doesn't seem to work either, because again, that refers t= o a typical
> something, and doesn't include ALL somethings.
>
> Next we come to "ro", which means all-of, so "ro le tca= du...": all-of
> the-ones-described-as cities... but that still doesn't quite say w= hat I
> want: "All cities are in countries" doesn't imply a bidi= rectional n-to-1
> relationship (If Paris is a city, and all cities are in countries, the= n
> Paris is in countries -- exists in multiple countries at once.)
>
> Okay, the next section seems promising, in that it lists je'abo, t= hat which
> indeed is. So "je'abo le tcadu cu cmima...": That-which-= indeed-is
> one-described-as-a city is a member of...
>
> But I'm having trouble with "one and only one country". = "pa le gugde", one
> something-described-as-a country" again doesn't imply the bid= irectional
> relationship I'm looking for.
>
> Halp?


=A0Actually, you basically had it... ro tcadu cu se stizu pa g= ugde.
The key is that when there is more =A0then one quantifier, each "scope= s"
over those that follow. =A0You will see this covered in detail in
chapter 16 of the grammar. =A0 So what this means is that for each city, there is exactly one country in which it is situated. It does NOT mean
that all cities are located in the same country (which would be the
case if you had reversed it as "pa gugde cu stizu ro tcadu").

=A0 Hope that helps?

=A0(P.S. =A0My son's first name is the same as your last name)

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa




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