From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 01 07:22:35 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 01 May 2009 07:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LztdL-0003WW-8q for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 01 May 2009 07:22:35 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.175]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <00ai99@gmail.com>) id 1LztdG-0003TJ-MV for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 01 May 2009 07:22:34 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so1691169wff.25 for ; Fri, 01 May 2009 07:22:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JvufRCSImhjvrNewdvRkDQLV3GdvplKod5CkA13Fb/4=; b=EAy9ov+ZoukUKMxoNa4n/SPk/Bk3MA3r2Fx4mrYECTeOQ6G/J4iekHRtJ49yOSg7Yn I5HKbZZ/ElcAHmjBOPlQAutMk9OI2DLZMqbgslOHjrHeEXJMXhHtWaZHjR0JDy/V9MRN zkZjON4EFBCzHVv0ngQrgWlb6ZYB2mugpAZKk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=v4mHLEca7dC6xAk6ICeeruGa/ZaQJXHXdQdm/hW2+cPTegyrs0BAIZOHX0GRXBhKyP Jolg+XfGhG7ClDw55XXX+dS4Y0pdH6KPzSVGRLuEoAOSMrNCeJKXBWraIChXfsMrWFOW jKGptK7KdTsOc0QoK/VzO5VELyA/C7BK/fw1Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.230.9 with SMTP id c9mr929330wfh.101.1241187749623; Fri, 01 May 2009 07:22:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4de8c3930905010618x7dad439dy780e59f35f58240f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4de8c3930905010303g75b3d726t79e98ef4efe9ccff@mail.gmail.com> <23f4e3390905010415v61424da6me4d3c96c132a2589@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930905010618x7dad439dy780e59f35f58240f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 23:52:29 +0930 Message-ID: <23f4e3390905010722g17f8edc3jd1aeda319d507b9a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojban meaning approximately "posture"? From: David Gowers <00ai99@gmail.com> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 1612 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: 00ai99@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:48 PM, tijlan wrote: > 2009/5/1 David Gowers <00ai99@gmail.com>: >> ko seltra le cutne mo'iga'u .e betfu mo'iga'u .e tupyjanco mo'i ni'a je ti'a > > The x1 of "seltra" is the x2 of "tarti" i.e. posture. "ko" itself > cannot be a posture. You could just say "ko tarti ...". Oops, I'm still being too literal. Thanks. > > The connective "e" is for sumtis. "betfu" is a selbri. You need a > gadri (descriptor) to make it a sumti. The same for "tupyjanco". > > I'm not sure about the tags (mo'iga'u, mo'i ni'a je ti'a). They are > part of the main bridi itself, not exclusively of the individual > terbris (arguments), unless you join them up with something like BE or > GOI. You could say: > >  le cutne be mo'iga'u .e le betfu be mo'iga'u .e le tupyjanco be mo'i > ni'a je ti'a > > Another possibility is to group each pair as a termset, either with > the afterthought "ce'e" or the forethought "nu'i ... nu'u": > >  le cutne ce'e mo'iga'u pe'e je le betfu ce'e mo'iga'u pe'e je le > tupyjanco ce'e mo'i ni'a je ti'a This gives me a better feeling (in that it makes more sense in terms of my limited understanding of CLL materials). Both were very enlightening though, thanks a lot! Termsets seem very useful :) > > That is: > >  [ le cutne ce'e mo'iga'u ] pe'e je [ le betfu ce'e mo'iga'u ] pe'e je > [ le tupyjanco ce'e mo'i ni'a je ti'a ] > > "je" is used instead of "e" because it's not sumtis that are > connected, according to CLL. And "pe'e" marks the connective as > joining termsets. There is a confusing example in CLL, however: > > 14.15)  la djeimyz. ce'e la meris. >        pe'e .e la djordj. ce'e la martas. prami >    James [plus] Mary >        [joint] and George [plus] Martha loves. > > "e" is used instead of "je". I don't know why, given that "je" is used in: My understanding is that pe'e .e and pe'e je are identical in meaning. This is because .e is [sumti] afterthought AND, je is [tanru] afterthought AND, and, AFAICS, pe'e just replaces the square-bracketed word with [termset], so to speak -- in the same way that 1*0 and 2*0 both equal 0. Perhaps a note should be added to CLL to that effect. David