From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 08 10:31:06 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 08 May 2009 10:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M2Tub-0004rE-Lf for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 08 May 2009 10:31:05 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f165.google.com ([209.85.219.165]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M2TuQ-0004jF-Pd for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 08 May 2009 10:31:04 -0700 Received: by ewy9 with SMTP id 9so1998101ewy.34 for ; Fri, 08 May 2009 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aDJDc48eibZvmDOfQM5BjiRm2l0c9HRmm16va23+Idg=; b=LosjAZH2paPM1G7J2pvLDrLcFHncDXKEsK8FNYYz+nQ8KAdRmEmpkb9rm4a6Q8j3Sz C/dUE7UkxzRHz1h3Txo9aaSshOiT89vQkS22Ep3NU4m5TlfCrb7gMDnr7LAyp2th3QMU erxfjAPYjVlNlnX+M+VOivs6juL92crUZiBeE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=g1HcQMALpLJehtcQcXy7z2QmhBW51vF7oS44TUcyeKAFcS48IbzAtRwJmG9yTdqx1n sTn5qd5pp9BQ1K71pB91lgo8l7hDl/PhdLs8MoD9zdBXKWpXtezkmlNcaf85QE6OY+rk cPq1//HcadObSGvqE6fpb57Vsnlbnpw/UELhQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.3.79 with SMTP id 57mr1636944weg.166.1241803843838; Fri, 08 May 2009 10:30:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200905040346.55611.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <7f1d42860904301145j6f589846p16fff6abd42b4547@mail.gmail.com> <7f1d42860904301207v7a49ab65ke15dbe185d78cf45@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300904301217y6493ade8k80eb802debf51b28@mail.gmail.com> <200905040346.55611.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 10:30:43 -0700 Message-ID: <7f1d42860905081030u57f0a628x8cdb1695a8a9e8c7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: simple question From: Ryan Leach To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 1638 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rsw.leach@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners My confusion with connectives stems from the way the chapter in CLL on connectives was laid out. To be honest, I didn't understand most of it. The chapter made me feel as though I was reading an advanced paper on physics rather than information about a language. My confusion is at that dangerous level where I'm not sure what I don't know, much less what I know. If Luke Bergen's description is accurate, then I have a better idea now. But if not then I'm at the point that a toddler learning to talk is at. I know that I need a way to express connections, and I have seen some used, but I have little to now idea about the rules. Thanks for your patience. Ryan On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Thursday 30 April 2009 15:17:24 Luke Bergen wrote: >> correct me if I'm wrong anybody but... >> >> the way I understand it is that ja/je/jo/ju are used in connecting words in >> a tanru.  So "lo gerku je nakni" is a tanru (treated as a single sumti in >> the bridi) that means "the thing that is a dog and male" whereas if you had >> just said "lo gerku nakni" you're being vague and are saying something more >> like "the dog type-of male". > > Correct. "lo nakni gerku" most likely means "a male dog", but "lo gerku nakni" > doesn't have an obvious meaning. > >> .a/.e/.o/.u is for saying "these two sumti fall into this place" but keeps >> them seperate.  So "lo gerku .e nakni" would be "the dog and the male" not >> speaking of 1 thing but of two things. > > "lo gerku .e nakni" is ungrammatical. "lo gerku .e lo nakni" does not refer > necessarily to two things. "lo gerku .e lo nakni cu nenri le kumfa" would be > true if the room contains me and a female dog, but would be equally true if > the room contains one male dog and nothing else. "jo'u" may exclude the > single male dog, but I'm not sure. > > By the way, the missing member of the selma'o is "ji", which is a question. > >> finally ga/ge/gi/go/gu are just used for giving a reader/listener the >> knowledge that a logical connective is coming up, like "either A or B" is >> "ga .abu gi by" > > True. > > Pierre > >> I'm not sure if in all these cases there should have been a descriptor >> before the second element in the connective. >> >> - Luke Bergen >> >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ryan Leach wrote: >> > I'm afraid that chapter just made me more confused when I first read it. >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, komfo,amonan >> > >> > wrote: >> > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Ryan Leach wrote: >> > >> I want to say "lemons and also oranges are both citrus fruits" >> > >> >> > >> The connective word system for lojban is still messing with my brain. >> > >> >> > >> I think it would go like this >> > >> >> > >> "le najnimre ja le pelnimre cu grute" >> > >> >> > >> but I'm not sure. Any help on the ands and such for lojban or a place >> > >> to look them up even? >> > > >> > > lo najnimre .e lo pelnimre cu nimre >> > > >> > > Connectives are covered in chapter 14 of the Complete Lojban Language < >> > > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter14.html >. >> > > >> > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > > > > > >