From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon May 18 10:40:27 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M66p8-0006pS-Lw for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:27 -0700 Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.152]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M66p4-0006p2-PI for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:26 -0700 Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 36so10546121yxh.46 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KZi2oSE3CgI+Jfz5/zzF27MI7Df0l83KdF7idXdQu/Q=; b=IRdsf5AgfGJByTFn0A1gs9SI5WdZppIGAXGtNILx+vUHH9oD+vXsYh5ABELuuBVldu 9HUxo7BJh1dxm9gIfeiGjPeZifA5NhQKITKYV60YBcJ3bXH23fqWeUcQy25T1jGlwEsA tjV9RbY6V77ncS2qVOBC/yoi32Pjfl8XTM4l0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=V+HyItF37DibT4ilKNm4LStLFycW4Vbe3mmnWx1ljFZNSBjoebd01TwEH3Gu/m81jA X8m2rOgfwUo+QNTIRz8sWL215yk/xn1JQ6In4PpAPJ+64DyXVT83u53VxeYw/09oOKea 29pe/eh/JmR9/YbRoUjxOL2Bkl30Ty+CMZXF0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.197.7 with SMTP id u7mr9271765anf.108.1242668421373; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60905180956x3cce8570ud4745419e185ff6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4de8c3930905150216n6be2a0a2mcf06cab38dbe54d6@mail.gmail.com> <20090515155454.GA28981@sdf.lonestar.org> <925d17560905151012u5cf2f186ob70bd89191609300@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60905180956x3cce8570ud4745419e185ff6a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:40:21 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17560905181040ka3de92eg45e400ef92c93fdc@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sides From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 1683 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >  fi'o constructions create modals (BAI) not tenses (FAhA).  Although > they are related semantically, they are not the same. More generally, they are all tags. "fi'o" converts a selbri into a tag. A fi'o-construction is not exactly the same as a BAI either. A BAI can be preceded with NAhE and SE, and followed with NAI and KI, whereas a fi'o-construction cannot. But I think all tags should have the same grammar. Learning all the subtle differences in the grammars of BAI, FAhA, PU, VEhA, ZEhA, ZAhO, etc. is just pointless complication, and I doubt anyone actually bothers to learn them. Here is a proposal to unify and simplify their grammars: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Internal+grammar+of+tags > In particular, > you say te'e=fi'o se korbi.  But fi'o se korbi=se koi.  does te'e=se > koi? Maybe, or maybe not, I don't think I have ever used either. In jbovlaste I have actually defined "te'e" as "fi'o se koizva". Maybe the difference is that one comes from "x1 is the border of x2" and the other "x1 is _at_ the border of x2". But this distinction is not made for pritu/zunle/berti/snanu/stici/stuna and others, so it's not clear why it is important precisely for "korbi". In any case, I find that "bu'u" is the only relatively useful FAhA. For all the others, it almost always seems necessary or preferrable to use the selbri. > (still waiting for a cmavo for fi'o cpana and fi'o kansa, > myself...) I guess "fi'o se cpana" if it was to be a FAhA. mu'o mi'e xorxes