From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 01 01:04:20 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MB2VH-0003LP-9t for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:04:19 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f213.google.com ([209.85.219.213]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MB2Uz-0003IG-Km for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:04:17 -0700 Received: by ewy9 with SMTP id 9so6932241ewy.34 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=iFCOHJIvg/z+UJPZw1UcpQi0p2JTUb3P5e23hmL2E6o=; b=F1Dtq0+L2p57bzARwxedLyZsAf/G6YixTzdEivqCOVMSD2qFRM1kMphMFJ3Tx5qLUR LHcMPhgMr3fnTBLozIyGVMEf1g54utN5zsvBGZVFnjxGCB7aJ/pMV3qxyCNVugs/zgis T7ZU448AiDMLadXPv12XlM7KZ7J7DJWIKSpI0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=G3QDE8OCEoH6L7keC6bWGyML0c/q+yCVS/TjK+7NqXnikZ5GKKIFO1ix74R5fAXcuF Zd55LrKpuFnPmihPDiU2TPqiDpaifjFL83yzAF4CksIs+LzKRcvtIdbBm3CufiWG3Ieh mvULr1W+P8n2FtJH8vTUoXe5oDAhm9AH3z/es= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.210.87.11 with SMTP id k11mr3647420ebb.94.1243843435032; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:03:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <73982fe70905311909ke27958eo20e9a882a88ad4c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <73982fe70905311909ke27958eo20e9a882a88ad4c3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:03:55 +0400 Message-ID: <8900cc410906010103p1d2721e4rcdf94369983d19e3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Pronunciation: a major problem in spreading lojban From: Dmitry Shintyakov To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c163219f23d046b44de51 X-archive-position: 1730 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: shintyakov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0015174c163219f23d046b44de51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2009/6/1 Leonardo Castro > Hi, folks! > > I wonder why the patterns of basic lojban words were not chosen to be > "CVVCV" and "CVCVV" instead of "CCVCV" and "CVCCV" (I would also add > "CVNCV" and "CVVV" to the list). > > Anglophones are relatively well accustomed to consonant clusters, but > > > In my opinion, an auxlang should be no more complicated than Toki Pona: > > a'u Everybody cares about Japanese sou much. Let them judge for themselves. I would note that Japanese pays its price for having such a simple phonetics: tremendous amount of allophones in one part of vocabulary (especially e.g. kango), and long words in another part. Also, I think that languages (almost) without consonant clusters are rather rare. The only famous examples I know, are Japanese and Chinese (are there any examples in Europe?). But, as I can judge from my experience with native Chinese speakers, the most serious problem for them is not consonant clusters, but voiced consonants, like b, d, g. The students from China, learning here, in Russia, are getting to pronounce consonant clusters quite fast, but even those of them who speak almost fluent, pronounce voiced consonants incorrectly. Also, Lojban is not an auxlang, and simplicity was not its main goal. --0015174c163219f23d046b44de51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2009/6/1 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@gmail.com= >
Hi, folks!

I wonder why the patterns of basic lojban words were not chosen to be
"CVVCV" and "CVCVV" instead of "CCVCV" and &q= uot;CVCCV" (I would also add
"CVNCV" and "CVVV" to the list).

Anglophones are relatively well accustomed to consonant clusters, but
=A0

In my opinion, an auxlang should be no more complicated than Toki Pona:
=
a'u Everybody cares about Japanese sou much. Let the= m judge for themselves.

I would note that Japanese pays its price fo= r having such a simple phonetics: tremendous amount of allophones in one pa= rt of vocabulary (especially e.g. kango), and long words in another part.
Also, I think that languages (almost) without consonant clusters are ra= ther rare. The only famous examples I know, are Japanese and Chinese (are t= here any examples in Europe?). But, as I can judge from my experience with = native Chinese speakers, the most serious problem for them is not consonant= clusters, but voiced consonants, like b, d, g. The students from China, le= arning here, in Russia, are getting to pronounce consonant clusters quite f= ast, but even those of them who speak almost fluent, pronounce voiced conso= nants incorrectly.

Also, Lojban is not an auxlang, and simplicity was not its main goal. --0015174c163219f23d046b44de51--