From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jun 02 09:43:00 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MBX4l-00068l-5Y for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:43:00 -0700 Received: from mail-fx0-f219.google.com ([209.85.220.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MBX4f-000687-V2 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:42:58 -0700 Received: by fxm19 with SMTP id 19so7471132fxm.34 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tILq+vPodYJJQdTCH69ZtZJBtogqLcSmCq/mpS+i3u0=; b=dpnt3nD2U+MRttsT8RRxIT3t3XzumkO0/MhN/ARBT6J9H8mYhg5WlHwQJvhJXHV+1Y L/gYTFrWtwInO7gNIJ8s8YC3vtcfbm6lwm0NJHI6PIP//yA75Fas53sZd/aMQgkAvYLe FvGYuoDJaB2GF7u3dpjDxUnVqvWkHFamTJG+A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=kxUJar0cVq9Wj3GxFFGR5bVRqCf1tscy3CUAFBp+2mSGgQpcQdHz6OO72j0FxxESxm DSPS6plwG3w2x5SnCtz4IRSUDQRiwxPRwQVTeDfWIGdCfWVKeWdL2pRmLOX8LfJ8f0eR ilPKOFryGL1TCqfMB8t/iV6Fmfoqv5K4ZM9/A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.221.14 with SMTP id y14mr4043984muq.111.1243960965790; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <73982fe70906020712h236e8c5rf43c18ca4474b19e@mail.gmail.com> References: <73982fe70905311909ke27958eo20e9a882a88ad4c3@mail.gmail.com> <8900cc410906010103p1d2721e4rcdf94369983d19e3@mail.gmail.com> <73982fe70906020712h236e8c5rf43c18ca4474b19e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:42:45 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 139872b7f4b93af2 Message-ID: <4de8c3930906020942p4d14e58at3ebe43fb0ed55593@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Pronunciation: a major problem in spreading lojban From: tijlan To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1740 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jbotijlan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners 2009/6/2 Leonardo Castro : >> Also, I think that languages (almost) without consonant clusters are rather >> rare. The only famous examples I know, are Japanese and Chinese (are there > > If you consider semivowels and nasals as consonants, Japanese does > have some consonant clusters. Also, Mite simatta. = .u'u (mi) ba'o viska = (I) have (wrongfully) seen (this/that). can become Mit's'atta. ("t's'a" would sound almost the same as "tca" in Lojban) This kind of shortening words by leaving out vowels (thus potentially forming consonant clusters) is pretty common in everyday Japanese. But this is done unconsciously. Consciously pronouncing consonant clusters still proves difficult for most native speakers of Japanese. Another problem for them is telling "r" from "l". Like the Korean language, the orthography doesn't distinguish between the alveolar approximant and the alveolar *lateral* approximant, or the alveolar trill/tap/flap and the alveolar *lateral* flap (although the distinction is made again unconsciously to some extent in their actual pronunciation). tijlan