From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jun 23 10:14:40 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MJ9Zw-0001hi-CS for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:40 -0700 Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com ([209.85.221.179]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MJ9Zp-0001gs-UZ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:40 -0700 Received: by qyk9 with SMTP id 9so308353qyk.28 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=r6cPCpulyVe/CYOFfst1k844fAIV6GesyrO7BjskHCE=; b=VKgIUjugWKidTxUZ4xItBd7Kx/oK5AnMXzwPkNhMOGM4o+ZurtCIgytbAqhzVgBYQN S85dl6qZiU6TV9j234Yn6NLmIGTdXZdxhxbgg2wZV1OJeCD+BGeb3fiJMcJzSUkzMwZn dn+z7pD0OtawhOtdffOFVGJL9naBO/HFb4WAk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=sFZzQzvrLI+UBTOETvnqnHMougyF91PECA6ezqSDzXlZlTL8nSURDlvqVQkhNASpS/ U6KEUVcwFWYhd1BtGqvQtJLqj7t4wvwpPnumSpsQWhCjYbs1SsrF2ttN5YnKwIawopg8 8OT7Y+q0TuPCZzGu2P10GahImFSwnL+3aMYfU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.100.1 with SMTP id w1mr510014vcn.10.1245777267460; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200906231303.51825.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <5715b9300906230813u2c4149dbkf718e143387ae799@mail.gmail.com> <200906231303.51825.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:14:27 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300906231014l3dbadb73v4a291df1fe3fe0fa@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lu preti li'u From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e642d57a7f0c6f046d071f87 X-archive-position: 1879 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0016e642d57a7f0c6f046d071f87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So {lu ... li'u} works like go'i in terms of how much it delimits. I had just read in CLL that with {go'i} {mi} refers to an idea and is not quoted verbatim. i.e. A: mi barda B: .i go'i B is saying "yes, you are big", the word {mi} is not brought along but the concept itself is. So lu .. li'u works the same? Also, (somewhat related) in la alis. cizra je cinri zukte vi le selmacygu'e I found this: {lu ji'a ma prali sei la alis pensi fi lo cukta poi vasru no pixra ja nuncasnu li'u} How does one know when the "sei" stops and the main bridi continues? Why does the {fi} attach to the main bridi and not to pensi (other than the fact that pensi has no x3)? - Luke Bergen On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Tuesday 23 June 2009 11:13:05 Luke Bergen wrote: > > So, I have a couple of questions about lu ... li'u that I haven't found > in > > the CLL yet. > > > > A: lo gerku goi ko'a cu barda > > B: .i la saimon cusku lu ko'a cu xunre li'u > > > > Now, does the {ko'a} in the quote that B is referring to refer to "lo > > gerku" or potentially something else entirely? Or does the presence of a > > {ko'a} without a {goi} assignment within that quote make the entire quote > > ungrammatical. > > "ko'a" in the second sentence refers to something in Simon's utterance, > three > words of which are quoted here. Unless you're playing Simon Says, in which > case the second sentence is ignored because it contains "ko'a" instead > of "ko". The presence of "ko'a" without "goi" is not ungrammatical; it is > merely semantically unclear. The song "le cmalu bloti" uses it; it is up to > the listener to figure out that ko'a is the crew as a whole, or the crew > minus the boy, and ko'e is the boy. > > If B had said "la saimon. cusku le sedu'u ko'a xunre", though, "ko'a" would > refer to lo gerku. > > > Furthermore, if we have: > > > > A: la saimon cusku lu mi barda li'u > > > > is "mi" saimon or the speaker "A"? > > "mi" refers to "la saimon". > > Pierre > > > > --0016e642d57a7f0c6f046d071f87 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So {lu ... li'u} works like go'i in terms of how much it delimits.= =A0 I had just read in CLL that with {go'i} {mi} refers to an idea and = is not quoted verbatim.=A0 i.e.
A: mi barda
B: .i go'i

B = is saying "yes, you are big", the word {mi} is not brought along = but the concept itself is.=A0 So lu .. li'u works the same?

Also, (somewhat related) in la alis. cizra je cinri zukte vi le selmacy= gu'e I found this:
{lu ji'a ma prali sei la alis pensi fi lo cukta poi vasru no pixra ja nuncasnu li'u}
How does= one know when the "sei" stops and the main bridi continues?=A0 W= hy does the {fi} attach to the main bridi and not to pensi (other than the = fact that pensi has no x3)?

- Luke Bergen


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Pierre = Abbat <phma@phma= .optus.nu> wrote:
On Tuesday 23 June 2009 11:13:05 Luke Bergen wrote:
> So, I have a couple of questions about lu ... li'u that I haven= 9;t found in
> the CLL yet.
>
> A: lo gerku goi ko'a cu barda
> B: .i la saimon cusku lu ko'a cu xunre li'u
>
> Now, does the {ko'a} in the quote that B is referring to refer to = "lo
> gerku" or potentially something else entirely? =A0Or does the pre= sence of a
> {ko'a} without a {goi} assignment within that quote make the entir= e quote
> ungrammatical.

"ko'a" in the second sentence refers to something in Si= mon's utterance, three
words of which are quoted here. Unless you're playing Simon Says, in wh= ich
case the second sentence is ignored because it contains "ko'a"= ; instead
of "ko". The presence of "ko'a" without "goi&q= uot; is not ungrammatical; it is
merely semantically unclear. The song "le cmalu bloti" uses it; i= t is up to
the listener to figure out that ko'a is the crew as a whole, or the cre= w
minus the boy, and ko'e is the boy.

If B had said "la saimon. cusku le sedu'u ko'a xunre", th= ough, "ko'a" would
refer to lo gerku.

> Furthermore, if we have:
>
> A: la saimon cusku lu mi barda li'u
>
> is "mi" saimon or the speaker "A"?

"mi" refers to "la saimon".

Pierre




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