From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Jun 28 18:08:02 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ML5Ll-0008HR-VX for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:08:02 -0700 Received: from mail-gx0-f227.google.com ([209.85.217.227]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ML5Li-0008Fg-Dy for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:08:01 -0700 Received: by gxk27 with SMTP id 27so13693639gxk.10 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:07:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xYhDwXDfDypTCsQfOShq0zF7opxwDwBM4zjffppNioU=; b=nEllByahUj+EsQIzPCAz1RcDxpkwG9sHzPnXNu/+wx9W1bZJP1h/t5DJ4UXlE39Xgg TY8M8GsRYMHwwSyesB8XP2/bBq6nHeu8PExfRBpPTgJa2x7K1pbrqp56mVRCSZZ6iwqp DUeFTwhmQ+YCB654UXet0/4TB3bMY2T4TPOlY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qUjZlfYaVSPXatYyWjddE5y8VtqyKUmR9jgrB7DnakgdH/onubQd+/DEF3vQivoCMD enjfl6vUlq9jZTpok7W4xM1LuOcc9CXeYKTbyCYNtq1z/7v/HG428AahzAW6c8SOX0DR 2dtxyc618Myr+dn7p4b2MghJmK6AcvMWrQAe4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.17.194 with SMTP id t2mr579776iba.20.1246237671939; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:07:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 21:07:51 -0400 Message-ID: <425e4ac20906281807r5f3df10fud1ff3cd9eca57a87@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: xorlo quanitifiers From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1901 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: selckiku@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Sam Bader wrote: > > [In short, how do you know whether to use an inner or an outer quantifier on > a "lo" sumti?] .ui .i'i coi fi'i la .semiul. This is how I understand it: The inner number says how many referents you are talking about, "le ci plise" = the three apples I have in mind. The outer number shows how many of the referents do the thing you're saying they do, "re le plise cu xunre" = two of the apples are red. Note that if you only quantify on one side or the other, this is generally a distinction without a difference! "le re plise" is two apples you have in mind, and "re le plise" is out of the apples you have in mind, two of them, so as you can see it's still just two apples, either way. The distinction is more relevant when both are used, as in "re le ci plise cu xunre" = two of the three apples are red. As I understand xorlo, there is very little difference in how the quantifiers work with "lo" vs "le". I never understood why once upon a time "lo ci plise" would reduce the whole universe to three apples, and thankfully one is rarely accosted by that idea these days. The distinction most people understand between "lo" and "le" now is more about definiteness or particularness-- "le" certainly means that you have in mind some particular referent, and "lo" may mean that the referent is undetermined, inspecific, or even generic or general. srana le do jboselsku .i certu za'a .i do pau ze'a ma cilre .i va'i ca ma do co'a cilre .i do jinvi le du'u do cnino .i do sutcli .o'a dai ni'i .i mi facki fi so'u po'o nu srera .i do pilno zo ki'u gi'e djisku .ia zo ku'i .i mi lo simsa nu srera cu cafne gasnu .i simsa valsi ni'o ko zmadu jbobau bo tavla .au fi do noi na'e slabu mi .i mu'a do ma xabju .i mi merko gi'e xabju la .vermont. .i mi nanmu .i mi nanca li re so .i mi ze'u jbopre .i jbobau .iu .i .ua ru'e xu mi pu te cusku fi do fo la .irc. .i la .irc. cu frica be le mriste be'o munje pe'a .i frica ke tavla selckaji .i ta'o nai xu do mi me la .irc. slabu je'u .i .a'o ca'o jbopre doi jbopre mu'o .semiul. mi'e la selckiku