From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Aug 26 17:11:55 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgSao-0005RX-Tw for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:11:55 -0700 Received: from mail-pz0-f202.google.com ([209.85.222.202]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgSal-0005R6-Jn for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:11:54 -0700 Received: by pzk40 with SMTP id 40so650016pzk.26 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:11:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=tFBKbxomcSoynf9cyrZYA9illP/ovOvocMU/rZ3m6HA=; b=migm9xR0PfW0vIqpYl+e7afzFTh4q+TIOaq2Y7m1NWU+4wZFTw9ZSB+4TQfqtMAFZT h+w5zmU/yrBKqf0faEnbT0I4z/+sBDfQ1uHh+ptkoL9u7m0PIaAxVGP9LoG+waotPkny a5h27YnOkeJAWq6gNXQWPPZTXpBfrwiE+OJRs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=cnGFi4zR3kNvCKkSTeT7u9SZOgSL4CUkIejl/xna6dk21MOg/0iIWDzkboyJb1jIux ycGvTq/9TTCvugW2jAlxGDDEmjjyU76sA6VV3b614xe90un1e3a+jj5pE3RmBrLvgV5n RheRAOske5dNnpKeXrD2r7Kjw2o0sPwIWG/iI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.202.17 with SMTP id z17mr689923wff.39.1251331905534; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:11:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300908261608j3fe3d0a0g2a6bd54a976d2518@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300908261608j3fe3d0a0g2a6bd54a976d2518@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:11:45 -0700 Message-ID: <8905c87a0908261711k3099bdefu751854dd9ca7dab2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: jai From: Judson Lester To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2e302b9baf50472146996 X-archive-position: 2119 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nyarly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --000e0cd2e302b9baf50472146996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just reviewing the CLL with your question in mind, I (at least) hit on some understanding. The example in the CLL is: {mi jai rinka le nu do morsi} I cause your death This example is presented in contrast to: {tu'a mi rinka le nu do morsi} I cause your death {le nu do morsi} is simple enough: the event-of you die rinka, however, takes an event-abstraction as it's x1, so the "normal" form of a bridi with rinka should look like {le nu mi darxi rinka le nu do morsi} which is perhaps more explicit than we want to be. With {tu'a} I can say "some abstraction involving a sumti" - so {tu'a mi} is something like "something I did" in the context of rinka. In another context, it could me "something characteristic of mine" or "something that happened to me." But you asked about {jai}; I'm explaining {tu'a} because {jai} does something similar the other way: instead of rounding {mi} off, {jai} makes a square hole in {rinka} - it modifies the selbri so that its x1 place takes a sumti that fits its abstraction. So, where {rinka} is: "the first event is the cause of the second event", {jai rinka} is "an event related to x1 causes the other event." (as a postscript: How does {palo telgim} work as lojban for "x1"?) On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > So I have had this concept {jai} explained to me at least 4 times now. > Each time I leave the chat room/mailing list/wherever honestly believing > that "now I get it" only to find a couple days later that it's just as foggy > as it was before the explanation. Could I get one last explaniation that > explains the theory and a bunch of practical examples for the different > uses? Could these examples have as little other grammer as possible to > cloud the usage of {jai}? > > Additionally, how vital is {jai} to becoming fluent in lojban? > Hypothetically, if I never did end up "getting it", how badly would that > effect my "fluency" in lojban? > --000e0cd2e302b9baf50472146996 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just reviewing the CLL with your question in mind, I (at least) hit on some= understanding.

The example in the CLL is: {mi jai rinka le nu do mo= rsi} I cause your death
This example is presented in contrast to: {tu= 9;a mi rinka le nu do morsi} I cause your death

{le nu do morsi} is simple enough: the event-of you die
rinka, howev= er, takes an event-abstraction as it's x1, so the "normal" fo= rm of a bridi with rinka should look like
{le nu mi darxi rinka le nu do= morsi} which is perhaps more explicit than we want to be.

With {tu'a} I can say "some abstraction involving a sumti"= ; - so {tu'a mi} is something like "something I did" in the c= ontext of rinka.=C2=A0 In another context, it could me "something char= acteristic of mine" or "something that happened to me."

But you asked about {jai}; I'm explaining {tu'a} because {jai} = does something similar the other way: instead of rounding {mi} off, {jai} m= akes a square hole in {rinka} - it modifies the selbri so that its x1 place= takes a sumti that fits its abstraction.=C2=A0

So, where {rinka} is: "the first event is the cause of the second = event", {jai rinka} is "an event related to x1 causes the other e= vent."

(as a postscript: How does {palo telgim} work as lojban = for "x1"?)

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Luke Bergen= <lukeabergen= @gmail.com> wrote:
So I have had this concept {jai} explained to me at least 4 times now.=C2= =A0 Each time I leave the chat room/mailing list/wherever honestly believin= g that "now I get it" only to find a couple days later that it= 9;s just as foggy as it was before the explanation.=C2=A0 Could I get one l= ast explaniation that explains the theory and a bunch of practical examples= for the different uses?=C2=A0 Could these examples have as little other gr= ammer as possible to cloud the usage of {jai}?

Additionally, how vital is {jai} to becoming fluent in lojban?=C2=A0 Hy= pothetically, if I never did end up "getting it", how badly would= that effect my "fluency" in lojban?

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