From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Sep 26 03:44:21 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 26 Sep 2009 03:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MrUlI-0007mG-J3 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2009 03:44:21 -0700 Received: from mail-fx0-f225.google.com ([209.85.220.225]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MrUlE-0007lB-QZ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2009 03:44:20 -0700 Received: by fxm25 with SMTP id 25so1173175fxm.0 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 2009 03:44:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xRAxYMCqEbM13OO1QDZSeCCi6LvJnBrfd6zcamUr9Ac=; b=C2Fe0XxoYhuVcZwsMq3UPJQyY4ALQHefBDfv6epvdz9mh/BzE1MQkvHES4vzQzHCl/ CUcYjsIBLQ6wOfuO6jCIVyvM4nOgPReQ1J7v2GYlkRp/AK87qAlP66uW3aO2rtidzR+r qUYkdhxu4XxlcCcwVp5B8TMt33VX0jaP0pZr8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=qvbmkMM7AAZoz43Hhy6MdY5lac873Kq6KhlIDdwaARiPp6S9DIDnKcXoNiSBe3JI/t e7sz2qJkxbB6RgWx3ipDrWq8aKKH7fzaXGcz2+N3UK48jeEjOFvuqbX6a+EUgHAnPLsK zS1qwJR1oJrDKRuXFByN64xTyhbb7HcBPDkh0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.126.12 with SMTP id d12mr431981mun.40.1253961849356; Sat, 26 Sep 2009 03:44:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <74145aa00909250740s14ae670r4ba0536ea04ccf48@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930909251356x52c4b92cld4571097b2564d62@mail.gmail.com> <200909251733.46864.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:44:09 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: abc16ae619b789db Message-ID: <4de8c3930909260344q14320a48k239a6248df3766d9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=98There?= is the view from =?UTF-8?Q?here=E2=80=99?= question From: tijlan To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2417 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jbotijlan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners 2009/9/26 Ivo Doko : > 2009/9/25 Pierre Abbat : >> So the sentence >> means "The thing on the other side, having something to do with the here view >> — you (relation unspecified)". > > I thought "le jvinu be vi" was x1 of "ragve" and "do" was x3? > > I'm obviously missing something here. What do I need to do to make "le > jvinu be vi" x1 and "do" x3 of "ragve"? As "be" inserts "vi" into the selbri "jvinu", the construct "be vi" becomes internal to the selbri, going down to a lower structure level. "ragve" cannot be part of "be vi" because "be" can only have a term and "vi ragve" is not a term; so, the construct "be vi" naturally terminates just before "ragve", with which the sentence comes back to the upper structure level. On that level, "ragve" is right after "jvinu", forming a tanru "jvinu [be vi] ragve". And with "le" it becomes one sumti. If you want "ragve" as the main selbri, you want to terminate all (one, in this case) preceding sumti in the sentence and bring "ragve" to the uppermost structure level. This can be done with "cu": le jvinu be vi cu ragve fe do If you want "do" as the x3, the marker is "fi", not "fe". And, instead of "be vi", it would be more common to put "vi" before "jvinu", forming a tag selbri: le vi jvinu cu ragve fi do tijlan