From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 02 08:51:47 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:51:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N508A-0000sT-BU for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:51:47 -0800 Received: from mail-vw0-f198.google.com ([209.85.212.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N5086-0000rk-Gj for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:51:46 -0800 Received: by vws36 with SMTP id 36so1275277vws.28 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:51:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=gahgjCWiESXRiUcv3ciXcWr9dR72ke9pgEze9B/aerQ=; b=pyhGHgFSNWuoa1FAT17LIriJCyzUDJ96aNBDmjMn66r60fdI7F10yNwfopTnXQZa1N GYKEJGQjujxrXqMHHY/0/qy/LDBHCZ4kCFqgPh4GWAEVzCqnFKuMoD+N05v81iQvWVaH 6x0M8IVJ55ToFsbSNAsRxH0zqJVyouOgUzqjw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=vWELQeABd+zKk4hs4/I60irtn/YVMiVgonJA66sUS8eNwjXenX4LcJ2lEyuSvN5Gut M/vBwRHK4256FqA9bYaVISaMgBQDF5unW/D0XQORVUIzggzAw7DEQTcA2q0q+W91Fmf3 YSKNhRnOCaCwvGKaIhJseLMRX76EzXnKz233A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.66.41 with SMTP id l41mr5144131vci.85.1257180692145; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:51:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300911020646r15e26ce5m1b5e141bf1876251@mail.gmail.com> References: <27513e550910291914p6c2f06cdi4c6ee61a8d056744@mail.gmail.com> <200910300049.45845.phma@phma.optus.nu> <27513e550910300836x72c7bb57jced0b80f9415fbf3@mail.gmail.com> <200910301201.33462.phma@phma.optus.nu> <27513e550910301724t26c26060sae87b3b6ed5358ca@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60911020636j317298ddy6474542987291337@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300911020646r15e26ce5m1b5e141bf1876251@mail.gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 00:51:12 +0800 Message-ID: <27513e550911020851t55cc215bjb736ebcc70ed5dcb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: n00b translation request To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485e0e61e92ed450477663095 X-archive-position: 2534 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: get.oren@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --001485e0e61e92ed450477663095 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .i ki'e ki'e ki'e Original: n00b translation request Gloss: low-expertise translation-result thing-requested Lojban: {to'e certu ke xelfanva selcpedu} -gejyspa that's just what I needed. I guess I'm really requesting a {xelfanva} and not a {nunfanva}. If I did, everyone on the mailing list might heed my request and undertake {nunfanva}, but then not give me the result! ...On the other hand, in the name of brevity, I suppose that {to'e certu ke fanva cpedu} should be sufficient, right? --I mean, it's perhaps a malglico convention that we expect a title to describe the message's content, as I did (i.e. "[this message is a] translation request") as opposed to it's role (i.e. "[this message is a] translate-type-of-requester") ...and I like brevity. So, unless I've made another mistake in the above assumptions, should I have any more n00b translation requests in the future, I'll choose my favorite wording {.i nalcertu ke fanva cpedu} ki'e mu'o mi'e ku'us ...actually, on second thought, no. .i na mu'o. I think my choosing to add "n00b" before "translation request" is not really a vested statement about consummate lojbanitry, which calls into my mind needless questions about defining the role of "expertise" in answering my query. Instead I think it's an artifact of humility in public discourse, as a way of asserting that *any* attempt at translation is welcome. And anyhow, I could learn something from a non-master who looks at the problem right. Since I can't find an attitudinal for "welcoming," I can settle with {ga'icu'i} 'as equals' for the feeling I'm looking for. So, until next {.i ga'icu'i fanva cpedu}, ki'e mu'o mi'e ku'us On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 22:46, Luke Bergen wrote: > ahh, I always forget that the translation result is x5 of fanva. {fanva} > kind of breaks the mold of lojban words that if it sounds normal to say the > english "the ____" then the x1 is probably "x1 is a _____ with blah blah > done by blah blah etc..." (e.g. {gerku}, {cukta}, {mukti} etc...}. I > always want to use it like: {x1 is a translation of work x2 from source > language x3 into target language x4 translated by x5} or something like > that. > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Oren wrote: >> > The two sentences below were not my doing! These were the proposed >> earlier >> > in the thread by Pierre Abbat and Luke Bergen, respectively. >> > >> > Both contain a "sel" prefix, which I know has something to do with a >> "second >> > conversion," but in this context, I can't find an explanation for why >> it's >> > necessary-- we're just making a tanru right? I've skimmed both CLL and >> > level 0. If someone can help me understand why 'sel-' is added to these, >> I >> > would be very grateful! >> > >> > mu'omi'e .ku'us. >> > >> > On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 00:01, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> >> >> >> > 1. *.i nalcertu ke fanva selcpedu >> >> > .i lo to'e certu selfanva bo cpedu* >> >> > >> >> > Can someone explain or point me to where I can learn about why >> adding >> >> > 'sel' is necessary? >> >> >> >> I think you're confusing the place structures of "cpedu" and "preti". >> lu >> >> ma >> >> zasti? li'u preti zo'e mi do .iku'i mi cpedu lu ko ga'orgau le canko >> li'u >> >> do. >> > >> >> "nalcertu ke fanva cpedu" would mean "a non-expert >> (translator-requester)", since a cpedu is someone who requests >> something. Since you were translating "a novice translation request" >> you wanted "selcpedu", the thing being requested, not "cpedu" the >> requester. Similarly, "lo to'e certu fanva bo cpedu" would mean a "a >> novice (translator-requester)", whereas "lo to'e certu selfanva bo >> cpedu" means a novice (translated-from requester), since a fanva is >> one who translates, but a selfanva is what they are translating. >> Although arguably, both of these are wrong, at it really should be, >> IMO "to'e certu ke nunfanva selcpedu" or "to'e certu ke xelfanva >> selcpedu" since you are requesting either an event of translating >> (the first version) or the a translation result (the second version). >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> > --001485e0e61e92ed450477663095 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.i ki'e ki'e ki'e

Original: n00b transl= ation request
Gloss:=A0=A0=A0 low-expertise translation-result thing-req= uested
Lojban:=A0=A0 {to'e certu ke xelfanva selcpedu} -gejyspa
<= br>that's just what I needed.

I guess I'm really requesting a {xelfanva} and not a {nunfanva}. If= I did, everyone on the mailing list might heed my request and undertake {n= unfanva}, but then not give me the result!

...On the other hand, in = the name of brevity, I suppose that {to'e certu ke fanva cpedu} should = be sufficient, right?

--I mean, it's perhaps a malglico convention that we expect a title= to describe the message's content, as I did (i.e. "[this message = is a] translation request")

as opposed to it's role (i.e. &= quot;[this message is a] translate-type-of-requester")

...and I like brevity. So, unless I've made another mistake in the = above assumptions, should I have any more n00b translation requests in the = future, I'll choose my favorite wording {.i nalcertu ke fanva cpedu}
ki'e mu'o mi'e ku'us

...actually, on second thou= ght, no. .i na mu'o.

I think my choosing to add "n00b"= before "translation request" is not really a vested statement ab= out consummate lojbanitry, which calls into my mind needless questions abou= t defining the role of "expertise" in answering my query.

Instead I think it's an artifact of humility in public discourse, a= s a way of asserting that *any* attempt at translation is welcome. And anyh= ow, I could learn something from a non-master who looks at the problem righ= t.

Since I can't find an attitudinal for "welcoming," I can = settle with {ga'icu'i} 'as equals' for the feeling I'm = looking for.

So, until next {.i ga'icu'i fanva cpedu},
ki'e mu'o mi'e ku'us

On M= on, Nov 2, 2009 at 22:46, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
ahh, I always forget that the translation result is x5 of fanva.=A0 {fanva}= kind of breaks the mold of lojban words that if it sounds normal to say th= e english "the ____" then the x1 is probably "x1 is a _____ = with blah blah done by blah blah etc..."=A0 (e.g. {gerku}, {cukta}, {m= ukti} etc...}.=A0 I always want to use it like:=A0 {x1 is a translation of = work x2 from source language x3 into target language x4 translated by x5} o= r something like that.


On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Michael Turn= iansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrot= e:
> The two sentences below were not my doing! These were the proposed ear= lier
> in the thread by Pierre Abbat and Luke Bergen, respectively.
>
> Both contain a "sel" prefix, which I know has something to d= o with a "second
> conversion," but in this context, I can't find an explanation= for why it's
> necessary-- we're just making a tanru right? I've=A0 skimmed b= oth CLL and
> level 0. If someone can help me understand why 'sel-' is added= to these, I
> would be very grateful!
>
> mu'omi'e .ku'us.
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 00:01, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>>
>> > =A0 =A01. *.i nalcertu ke fanva selcpedu
>> > =A0 =A0.i lo to'e certu selfanva bo cpedu*
>> >
>> > =A0 =A0Can someone explain or point me to where I can learn a= bout why adding
>> > =A0 =A0'sel' is necessary?
>>
>> I think you're confusing the place structures of "cpedu&q= uot; and "preti". lu
>> ma
>> zasti? li'u preti zo'e mi do .iku'i mi cpedu lu ko ga&= #39;orgau le canko li'u
>> do.
>

=A0"nalcertu ke fanva cpedu" would mean "a non-= expert
(translator-requester)", since a cpedu is someone who requests
something. =A0Since you were translating "a novice translation request= "
you wanted "selcpedu", the thing being requested, not "cpedu= " the
requester. Similarly, "lo to'e certu fanva bo cpedu" would me= an a "a
novice (translator-requester)", whereas "lo to'e certu selfan= va bo
cpedu" means a novice (translated-from requester), since a fanva is one who translates, but a selfanva is what they are translating.
Although arguably, both of these are wrong, at it really should be,
IMO "to'e certu ke nunfanva selcpedu" or "to'e certu= ke xelfanva
selcpedu" since you are requesting either =A0an event of translating (the first version) or the a translation result (the second version).

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa





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