From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 02 08:59:31 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N50Ff-0001S2-BJ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:59:31 -0800 Received: from cluster-b.mailcontrol.com ([85.115.56.190]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N50FU-0001Qv-Of for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:59:31 -0800 Received: from aeacus.blackpool.gov.uk (aeacus.blackpool.gov.uk [195.188.21.21]) by rly33b.srv.mailcontrol.com (MailControl) with ESMTP id nA2GxHqu022441 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:59:17 GMT x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA5BDD.CF5B202A" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second opinion on this one Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:59:15 -0000 Message-ID: <9DE5DB0988ED6C448E606734F5030D3822C1A9EA@bbcmbmx01.blackpool.gov.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second opinion on this one Thread-Index: Acpb3SAZcthMha33R5aWYUykRvGF7AAABAvQ From: "Michael Eaton" To: X-Scanned-By: MailControl A-09-22-03 (www.mailcontrol.com) on 10.66.0.143 X-archive-position: 2536 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA5BDD.CF5B202A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to scientific and logical wisdom, yes; dead things do not tend = to stop being dead. But that logic does not make it definitive. If you = are using that statement in, for instance, a story in a fantastical = setting where resurrection is commonplace, the implications of the lack = of clarity become much clearer. =20 "I haven't seen Bob for a few days." "Oh, yeah, he has been dead." =20 See how easily that could say "he has been asleep" or "he has been = eating". Both of those examples imply that Bob is no longer asleep or = eating. Just because logic dictates meaning, doesn't mean the syntax is = as implicit. -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org = [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Steven Lytle Sent: 02 November 2009 16:53 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second = opinion on this one I disagree. The present perfect in English in general means "was and is = still". There is no sense of "is no longer".=20 OTOH, "I ran" means I was running but am no longer running. "I was = running" implies I'm not still running. "I have run many times" implies that I ran many times in the past and = will probably in the future, but am not running at the moment. "I have eaten" does seem to imply that I'm no longer eating. Maybe the difference has to do with states vs. actions.=20 In the case of "has been dead", though, if something has been dead, it = still is dead. stevo On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Michael Eaton < = michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote: Not entirely. "Has been dead" is one of those syntactically bizarre = phrases that Lojban is designed to avoid. It's not implicit, but the = syntax leans towards "was at one time dead, but is no longer dead". "Was = and is still dead" is, rather more simply, "dead". -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto: = lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Steven Lytle Sent: 02 November 2009 16:29 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second = opinion on this one "Has been dead" means "was and is still dead". stevo 2009/11/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas < jjllambias@gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 12:53 PM, tijlan < jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote: > > da ca co'i morsi (One dies.) > da ca ba'o morsi (One is dead.) That would work if "morsi" meant "dies" (a change of state, goes from being alive to being dead) rather than "is dead" (a state). "ba'o morsi" means "has been dead" (i.e., it is no longer dead), not "has died" (it is no longer dying). Compare with "sipna", which is more likely than "morsi" to be used with "ba'o". "ba'o sipna" means "has been asleep", not "has fallen asleep". "Falls asleep" is "sipybi'o" or "co'a sipna", and "dies" is "mrobi'o" or "co'a morsi". "co'i sipna" and "co'i morsi" are complete events of sleeping, or of being dead. The difference is that events of being dead don't usually ever end, so its unlikely that one would speak of "ba'o morsi", "having been dead", except in some very special contexts. mu'o mi'e xorxes http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as = part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. =20 Click here = to report this email as spam. http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as = part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. *************************************************************************= ***** See the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visitors by=20 clicking this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime *************************************************************************= ***** ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA5BDD.CF5B202A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
According to scientific and logical wisdom, yes; dead things do = not tend=20 to stop being dead. But that logic does not make it definitive. If you = are using=20 that statement in, for instance, a story in a fantastical setting where=20 resurrection is commonplace, the implications of the lack of clarity = become much=20 clearer.
 
"I haven't seen Bob for a few days."
"Oh, yeah, he has been dead."
 
See how easily that could say "he has been asleep" or "he = has been=20 eating". Both of those examples imply that Bob is no longer asleep or = eating.=20 Just because logic dictates meaning, doesn't mean the = syntax=20 is as implicit.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org=20 [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Steven=20 Lytle
Sent: 02 November 2009 16:53
To:=20 lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: = Study=20 plan for a quiz- I'd like a second opinion on this = one

I disagree. The present perfect in English in general means "was = and is=20 still". There is no sense of "is no longer".
OTOH, "I ran" means I was running but am no longer running. "I = was=20 running" implies I'm not still running.
"I have run many times" implies that I ran many times in the past = and=20 will probably in the future, but am not running at the moment.
"I have eaten" does seem to imply that I'm no longer = eating.
Maybe the difference has to do with states vs. actions.
In the case of "has been dead", though, if something has been = dead, it=20 still is dead.
stevo

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Michael = Eaton=20 <michael.eaton@blackpool.go= v.uk>=20 wrote:
Not=20 entirely. "Has been dead" is one of those syntactically bizarre = phrases that=20 Lojban is designed to avoid. It's not implicit, but the = syntax=20 leans towards "was at one time dead, but is no longer dead". "Was = and is=20 still dead" is, rather more simply, = "dead".
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On = Behalf Of=20 Steven Lytle
Sent: 02 November 2009 = 16:29
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: = [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second = opinion on=20 this one

"Has been dead" means "was and is still dead".
stevo

2009/11/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 12:53 PM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> = wrote:
>
>=20  da ca co'i morsi (One dies.)
>  da ca ba'o = morsi (One=20 is dead.)

That would work if "morsi" meant "dies" = (a change=20 of state, goes from
being alive to being dead) rather than = "is dead"=20 (a state).

"ba'o morsi" means "has been dead" (i.e., it = is no=20 longer dead), not
"has died" (it is no longer = dying).

Compare=20 with "sipna", which is more likely than "morsi" to be = used
with=20 "ba'o". "ba'o sipna" means "has been asleep", not "has=20 fallen
asleep". "Falls asleep" is "sipybi'o" or "co'a sipna", = and=20 "dies" is
"mrobi'o" or "co'a morsi". "co'i sipna" and "co'i = morsi"=20 are complete
events of sleeping, or of being dead. The = difference is=20 that events of
being dead don't usually ever end, so its = unlikely=20 that one would
speak of "ba'o morsi", "having been dead", = except in=20 some very special
contexts.

mu'o mi'e=20 xorxes






http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/

This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious = content as=20 part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies.

 

Click here to report this email as=20 spam.



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See=20 the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visitors by=20
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