From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Nov 22 10:05:30 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCGoT-0005jw-KT for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:05:29 -0800 Received: from mail-fx0-f211.google.com ([209.85.220.211]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCGoM-0005iO-5K for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:05:29 -0800 Received: by fxm3 with SMTP id 3so5279897fxm.4 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:05:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=WXFmkPzQZUp50ZzjIrVlmID+dLdxmv3PktbPStTpUIQ=; b=iB/9p9xQWcl49jErMHokx1RyYuQ4ktNtclMNKbnEHQhgiJlFEQCzPFH20ry3WKzkvW ZQjkbFVQEZxN1Rpv10IkAKLfHPN0xu59YXGopQ5XtttJ+L2lVfrZcjvjMI9/HQs749Kv YEGImhf4aVJTtkSHYQodehdePlZET1bCbrQck= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=EQyETHmDarXgC97iMlA8pvI7ibywgZhNhgwmYqwg3vgZZi5F74iCpkaQG4XkidFY+s WYvdGlQZ8iZUfs5J5f+GG7Duvu9skF566nPgTeYfV57oqaTMjAUi8s+2WzH9ahJdmsVt pm7JlYvKTNS9UAZ8SOy2Obg1l/6/bxIchXKws= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.168.204 with SMTP id l12mr422528hbe.36.1258913115241; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:05:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <36F41326-A754-44CD-BAB7-D998075C54CE@choi.name> References: <200911221105.31626.phma@phma.optus.nu> <36F41326-A754-44CD-BAB7-D998075C54CE@choi.name> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:05:15 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 90d35fb41dc06e81 Message-ID: <12d58c160911221005xc2e53d3q24f9d0d09ba2024@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sel- vs se From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163646bca8097cc90478f98dbf X-archive-position: 2570 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: komfoamonan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --00163646bca8097cc90478f98dbf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote: >> >>> Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo >>> and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi" >>> and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selklani"? One forms >>> phrases=E2=80=94don't know if you'd call them "tanru"=E2=80=94and the o= ther forms words >>> =E2=80=94which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified= " >>> meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does >>> that affect words like selcti? >>> >> >> Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If "seltc= i" >> (or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a >> difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes something traded", >> i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean that, and could al= so >> mean "flag that is traded". >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi wrote: > Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference betwe= en > pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no difference at all, right? > They're semantically equivalent, and in this case they even have the same > amount of syllables. > > So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, or doe= s > one not have to care at all about it? > Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. The canonical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score among the possible rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring algorithm (CLL 4:12). mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan --00163646bca8097cc90478f98dbf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote:
Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo
and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi&quo= t;
and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selkl= ani"? One forms
phrases=E2=80=94don't know if you'd call them "tanru"=E2= =80=94and the other forms words
=E2=80=94which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "spec= ified"
meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does
that affect words like selcti?

Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru= . If "seltci"
(or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes someth= ing traded",
i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean t= hat, and could also
mean "flag that is traded".


On Sun, Nov 2= 2, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote:
Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference between pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no= difference at all, right? They're semantically equivalent, and in this case they even have the same amount of syllables.

So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, or does = one not have to care at all about it?

= Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. The can= onical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score among the possibl= e rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring algorithm (CLL 4:12).
mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
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