From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Nov 22 14:32:12 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCKya-00046O-4T for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:32:12 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f187.google.com ([209.85.211.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCKyW-000463-0E for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:32:11 -0800 Received: by ywh17 with SMTP id 17so4617590ywh.2 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:32:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=9Qlx03HjsFdylZ+qX4OsFfc3lcAClNw5PKEnUm7SCm4=; b=Y4XNGE/lUwQjc6U4lVP+fZddN36Z7dQ4madnZDsN5eZIItyr8SeoLd+AnhWU2uSNpr uF8Jd8c1qKKHHXWo4cU35X2t62mMy1UBnGaSjEkXj976L7WhaD9DiBcW7QPleBqk797T G6QiQu6TdXa4bBZqx7rual4tUSV0Dj65+aRCI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=O5qI9aOKgBleSrDXSPyUlH/L5L0uPOfY+6klfxvAL9qOGMVMrv/wDDeLWmpBpp+6F0 crYfw0cV2EqLSyTfH0OzOvgpVdhS971tTVftJa8L0ntL6S0VRn7BZEjH6mk9dATKpUrV Osyrt/Hzk8B3+QN8reKE8pyukN62/DL3vhNG0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.162.18 with SMTP id k18mr7193441ybe.155.1258929121369; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:32:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7D2D5FD9-4849-45F3-8540-EC57C0B9C026@choi.name> References: <200911221105.31626.phma@phma.optus.nu> <36F41326-A754-44CD-BAB7-D998075C54CE@choi.name> <12d58c160911221005xc2e53d3q24f9d0d09ba2024@mail.gmail.com> <7D2D5FD9-4849-45F3-8540-EC57C0B9C026@choi.name> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:32:01 -0500 Message-ID: <5715b9300911221432y2f9724a4nb2d5156cfc2050ac@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sel- vs se From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd60ae2139ffb0478fd47d3 X-archive-position: 2572 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --000e0cd60ae2139ffb0478fd47d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. lujvo have explicit definitions. They have exactly the same precisio= n as a gismu does. Tanru, however, are vague and can mean many things based on context. So for instance, {retsku} means "x1 asks/puts question x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) of/to x3 via expressive medium x4 about subject x5". While, on the other hand, {preti cusku} is more vague, like "question type of sayer". Another difference is that sometimes when constructing lujvo, people will leave out bits for the sake of brevity. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. Maybe someone else can chime in with a good example where the {sel} bit is chopped out to make it shorter. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Choi wrote: > Oops, I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant "selbo'e" a= nd > "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo using "sel", and the other > being the cmavo followed by the gismu. Is there any difference in usage > between using the lujvo and using the cmavo+gismu? > > > On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote: > > >> On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> >> On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote: >> Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo >> and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi" >> and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selklani"? One forms >> phrases=97don't know if you'd call them "tanru"=97and the other forms wo= rds >> =97which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified" >> meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does >> that affect words like selcti? >> >> Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If "seltc= i" >> (or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a >> difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes something traded", >> i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean that, and could al= so >> mean "flag that is traded". >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi wrote: >> Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference >> between pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no difference at al= l, >> right? They're semantically equivalent, and in this case they even have = the >> same amount of syllables. >> >> So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, or do= es >> one not have to care at all about it? >> >> Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. The >> canonical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score among the >> possible rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring algorithm (CL= L >> 4:12). >> >> mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan >> > > > > > --000e0cd60ae2139ffb0478fd47d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes.=A0 lujvo have explicit definitions.=A0 They have exactly the same prec= ision as a gismu does.=A0 Tanru, however, are vague and can mean many thing= s based on context.

So for instance, {retsku} means "x1 asks/pu= ts question x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) of/to x3 via expressive m= edium x4 about subject x5".

While, on the other hand, {preti cusku} is more vague, like "quest= ion type of sayer".

Another difference is that sometimes when c= onstructing lujvo, people will leave out bits for the sake of brevity.=A0 I= can't think of any examples off the top of my head.=A0 Maybe someone e= lse can chime in with a good example where the {sel} bit is chopped out to = make it shorter.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Choi= <joshua@choi.name= > wrote:
Oops, I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant "sel= bo'e" and "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo= using "sel", and the other being the cmavo followed by the gismu= . Is there any difference in usage between using the lujvo and using the cm= avo+gismu?


On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote:


On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote:
Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo
and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi&quo= t;
and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selkl= ani"? One forms
phrases=97don't know if you'd call them "tanru"=97and the= other forms words
=97which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified&= quot;
meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does
that affect words like selcti?

Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru= . If "seltci"
(or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes someth= ing traded",
i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean t= hat, and could also
mean "flag that is traded".


On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote:
Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference between= pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's n= o difference at all, right? They're semantically equivalent, and in thi= s case they even have the same amount of syllables.

So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, or does = one not have to care at all about it?

Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. The can= onical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score among the possibl= e rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring algorithm (CLL 4:12).
mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan





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