From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 23 11:26:28 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCeYN-0002W3-NR for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:26:28 -0800 Received: from mail-yx0-f202.google.com ([209.85.210.202]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCeYH-0002Vj-Jf for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:26:26 -0800 Received: by yxe40 with SMTP id 40so5464360yxe.28 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:26:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:x-mailer; bh=1/JMBRUOXzqfYNIdEpL7klJf0eRhKo6Fm0vVwvgvwSA=; b=OiJwQN2Gq/cmgwi+B8kUtPY+SUQfgtfNto+8BiD6etnOSeJTy6Qp9RlPbT5j4RtfP2 T1g1iowxbo1DNf+2u4yGUxTpssD2NknrhN8NApozFmoZiajFXbaYGjBEtjNTX8zYNTlQ 6KopEkljqhIVvnNDx3foXK6iLBkHU6Oxts/9A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :x-mailer; b=lhG34nQTA0YnX5EGfhG0PXQ0mjzBLDRbEgDyTp3PIRaxjhvrK8sMrHSSWThZqfo+32 J53onkW342eXrNgtUwztxYP27Ui2ncBL8IooGVLci28CnIdkQJzRlNrW5PsZrLORBpvu FqsmYGzI/GBX2aKHrpr/lB5OViF8F+GpKhZ74= Received: by 10.101.135.38 with SMTP id m38mr3870214ann.163.1259004374472; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-10-132-209-194.uawifi.arizona.edu (uawifi-nat-210-16.arizona.edu [150.135.210.16]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 39sm2032588yxd.63.2009.11.23.11.26.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:26:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Joshua Choi To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <249d5b950911221839p792181a5rf7a3ad83a7836cfb@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sel- vs se Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:26:10 -0700 References: <200911221105.31626.phma@phma.optus.nu> <36F41326-A754-44CD-BAB7-D998075C54CE@choi.name> <12d58c160911221005xc2e53d3q24f9d0d09ba2024@mail.gmail.com> <7D2D5FD9-4849-45F3-8540-EC57C0B9C026@choi.name> <5715b9300911221432y2f9724a4nb2d5156cfc2050ac@mail.gmail.com> <249d5b950911221839p792181a5rf7a3ad83a7836cfb@mail.gmail.com> X-archive-position: 2574 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: joshua@choi.name Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Yes, that's it. The reason why I'm asking is that I'm learning Lojban vocabulary using flash cards, and I'm deciding on how to deal with gismu sumti. I thought of three ways. A card could look like this: FRONT: klama a: goer e: destination i: [...] o: route u: vehicle BACK: origin of going Or this: FRONT: te klama BACK: origin of going Or this: FRONT: terkla BACK: origin of going I decided to eliminate the first one because it has more clutter than is necessary to answer the question and recall the answer. So I was choosing between the second and third one. The third one has an added consequence of often quizzing a gismu's rafsi too, which may be positive or negative, depending on if I want to memorize rafsi separately or simultaneously. So the tipping point for me would be which—"terkla" or "te klama"—is used more, or if there is a difference between the two phrases' usages. I still don't know which I'm going to use. mu'omi'e symuyn On 22 November 2009, at 7:39 PM, Steven Lytle wrote: > The question wasn't about lujvo vs. tanru. > It was about the difference between SE GISMU and lujvo based on SE > GISMU (SELGIhU?). I think they're identical in meaning, and I prefer > SE GISMU because they're just GISMU with places. > I suppose it's possible to have a lujvo that looks like SELGIhU but > isn't by leaving out parts of the underlying tanru, but I would > consider that very bad form. > It's also possible that the SELGIhU, being a lujvo, has a specific > meaning not identical to the SE GISMU it seems to be based on, but > again, I would consider that very bad form. > It's possible that what I consider bad form is irrelevant, too. > stevo > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > Yes. lujvo have explicit definitions. They have exactly the same > precision as a gismu does. Tanru, however, are vague and can mean > many things based on context. > > So for instance, {retsku} means "x1 asks/puts question x2 (sedu'u/ > text/lu'e concept) of/to x3 via expressive medium x4 about subject > x5". > > While, on the other hand, {preti cusku} is more vague, like > "question type of sayer". > > Another difference is that sometimes when constructing lujvo, people > will leave out bits for the sake of brevity. I can't think of any > examples off the top of my head. Maybe someone else can chime in > with a good example where the {sel} bit is chopped out to make it > shorter. > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Choi wrote: > Oops, I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant > "selbo'e" and "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo using > "sel", and the other being the cmavo followed by the gismu. Is there > any difference in usage between using the lujvo and using the cmavo > +gismu? > > > On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote: > > > On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote: > Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo > and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi" > and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selklani"? One forms > phrases—don't know if you'd call them "tanru"—and the other forms > words > —which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified" > meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does > that affect words like selcti? > > Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If > "seltci" > (or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a > difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes something > traded", > i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean that, and > could also > mean "flag that is traded". > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi > wrote: > Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference > between pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no difference > at all, right? They're semantically equivalent, and in this case > they even have the same amount of syllables. > > So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, > or does one not have to care at all about it? > > Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. > The canonical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score > among the possible rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring > algorithm (CLL 4:12). > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > > > > > >