From get.oren@gmail.com Sun Dec 20 17:56:22 2009 Received: from mail-pw0-f47.google.com ([209.85.160.47]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMXVP-0003TD-TS for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:56:22 -0800 Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1so3398352pwi.26 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:56:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pa+sUaLpAsKW0P4mrgJybRiMfNLLITe/4B22bsMcEPg=; b=Nig3CeTRP815Fpx2FpgTkPxw+k1tsM9u75/ONoCBJ/hPN8Sqyqp1QWvaMic9AwGdLp nmxr+DbdD9uWy8WRjADk3pH08N2+hWgIwYedBmHPGPX5x8G4aXmmNxsk7uo7NQcoQ8ge zRDCpGl4nFDrQmdhuXtmkT6uVfJKaMNf6vmuU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=TUHa5dGz7W3ADJb+HA+o4hgs9syqDS1Eh+YRPPCoeZSfx0rNUJbBKi8o3pTeXeunKu NPXvSxQ1nZPwXNeNj3gq9EqYjmo5oULefwNjC3RJBrMyz+C9YYtCBVcIVNqMv34hodWM IjURo1gxlbbh3fsljK92NxbtjxOnoW4xDCS8M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.209.20 with SMTP id h20mr4408115wfg.167.1261360569132; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:56:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> From: Oren Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:55:49 +0800 Message-ID: <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd like to help build a site for beginners! One that would (1) Have a flexible lojban-lesson framework (2) Have a learner's forum so that beginners know they're not alone (3) Provide a "gateway" to introduce the wiki, ways to help, how to use applications etc. ...the way I see it, there's two users and so (at least the appearance of) two sites would make things more orderly. Category 1: Experienced people. They're likely not fluent in lojban, but they're literate. They may be amateur or professional linguists, programmers or just self-motivated, and so they treat lojban very differently; more like a programming language; i.e. a tool or resource. So it's completely natural that there be an online place to post builds, projects, ideas and esoteric debates for lojban. Category 2: New people. They hear about lojban and see lojban.org and think "Hey, maybe I'll try to learn this." And then they go view one of the several endorsed learning materials. But they treat lojban like a human language, and there's nowhere to ask questions on the site, and no user forum (so no way of knowing that others are studying too). So when they come back to visit and try to find more materials, they see a bunch of seemingly non-functional 'works in progress' mixed in with vocabulary lists-- and they don't come back a third time. My impression is that nearly all lojbanists on the mailing lists or active on one of the websites (jbotcan, lojban.org, jbovlaste) are self-motivated and geeky, (that is, of category 1), and that with growing interest worldwide in information technology, multilingualism or globalization or whatever, the category 2 user is going to come more and more often, and they're the people who really need a "website," not a development wiki. And lots of category 2 users don't use mailing lists, irc, or google wave. My impression of how lojban is used online: lojban.org -> LLG's official web presence, for everyone* jbovlaste -> active vocabulary development, for category 1 lojban-geeks jbotcan, -> active discussion, for category 1 lojban-geeks irc, mailing lists, google wave -> active communication, mostly category 1 lojban-geeks* *growing category 2 lojban-beginner population What I think is missing: beginner website -> Beginner's resources, discussion, intro to lojban development Or am I way off? I hope that makes sense... mu'o mi'e .ku'us. On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 00:47, Colin Wright wrote: > I'm not in a convenient place to create long, clear, expository emails. > This will not be as complete as I would like. =A0However, you seem to be > confused about something for which I might be able to help. > > You said: > >> The reference to jbofihe (which includes valatai) is on: >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Dictionaries%2C+Glossers+and+parsers >> 'jbofihe' is linked to an address which allows you to download >> jbofihe-snap_20030418.tar.tar which supposedly includes vlatai. >> How do I unpack it to get at vlatai? Certainly, WinZip doesn't >> do it. > > The only reference I can find takes me to http://www.rc0.org.uk/jbofihe/ > > There we can find a table, the first entry gives this information: > > | Version : snap_20030418 > | Released : 18 April 2003 > | Status : Current trial release > | Source code distribution : Available by HTTP (link) > | MSDOS binary distribution : None > > The link you probably refer to is this one: > > http://www.rpcurnow.force9.co.uk/jbofihe/jbofihe-snap_20030418.tar.gz > > Note: This is a source code distribution, not an executable. =A0It does > not, as you say, link to jbofihe-snap_20030418.tar.tar =A0It might be tha= t > Windows helpfully renames it into that. =A0However, it is a compressed > tar file, easily uncompressed and extracted on every system I use, and > created using systems that have readily available, free distribution. > It does not contain a program you can run. =A0It has source code that you > will need to compile. > > Probably WinZip isn't one of the packages that can extract it, and you > probably don't have a compiler unless you're into programming. > > It may be that Windows has already decompressed it. =A0I wouldn't know. > Windows does try to be helpful, and I can never work out what it's done. > >> References to both of these appear on the Wiki on the >> pages most likely to be used by beginners. =A0This is not >> where we want to discourage them from going further! > > You have absolutely no argument from me here, but these are packages > produced by people with more enthusiasm than time. =A0Clear, complete > and professional packages take time. =A0A lot of time. =A0I certainly > don't have time to work on the literally hundreds of things that > I think could be better. > > Further, most of these packages are produced by people using Linux and > without access to development tools on Windows. =A0After all, Linux comes > for free with compilers or interpreters for C, C++, Python, AWK, Perl and > more, and there are freely downloadable packages for languages such as > Pascal, Ruby, OCaml, Haskell, Common Lisp, Scheme, and many more. > > Windows comes with Solitaire. > > Making Windows packages is non-trivial. > > I use jbofi'e all the time. =A0Downloading, unpacking, compiling and runn= ing > was a trivial exercise. =A0I've never worked with LogFlash - I had much t= he > same problem as you, and I simply gave up. > > I know that might not help much, but it seems clear that the lojban wiki > is made by geeks, and generally is not suitable for non-geeky beginners. > If you would like to build a site more suited to the non-geeky beginner > then I'm sure people would be happy to provide materials and assistance. > > Rgds, > > Colin > > > -- > Denbridge Marine Limited may monitor email traffic data and the > content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. > > Denbridge Marine Limited. > Registered in England and Wales at DSG, 43 Castle St, Liverpool. L2 9TL. > Registered Number 4850477 > > > >