From totus@rogers.com Sun Dec 20 18:35:43 2009 Received: from n10.bullet.re3.yahoo.com ([68.142.237.123]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMY7W-0005wQ-7C for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:35:43 -0800 Received: from [68.142.237.88] by n10.bullet.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 02:35:31 -0000 Received: from [66.196.97.136] by t4.bullet.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 02:35:29 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp109.mail.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 02:35:29 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 632868.39612.bm@omp109.mail.re3.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 1651 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2009 02:35:29 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1261362929; bh=QklAsQ1tLWBsHrUKN0U+kw5oFy0A6vjCN0oDBqa6IWw=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3gsgBhYb0uehetHy83OkHFCW+KexgdSaqYVOVkoyMSBlnKVjSrHOqApIadCvl6bGcS2+WLQAGMXpYa+VsO9hp2e2EvC5Xx/xv6jH5grDr2+IIJr1MnRpvgWfwWbqfrEoCjwZea5Qs59ifr0wfRhnob+ifF1z037qdwiJWPxLM6E= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=6CkAUGb/JqbfTXRS6z1L+sruIMyON9X70PRgYcDtn4TKfp3zCpMNR/KMdFldijHdYBi+A3wQGklwIGw6QueDoUNsGJlpcAC1Do14wVZm20EiqWsVlIuI6QPNiFLGP/o1BUm/bAA6FouRJbs1KCtHnpU3hiJxB5RjSuphT+BX0ak=; Message-ID: <493223.97069.qm@web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: f1TzcasVM1moiMf5Wq0T7DjxNWXKsPYZvJNefzb6QriIEDP8v0mOTFORTJRqrlj.MIyEYBPacTr0lJvhgVTSNsjT6RBbh9gKN0Du2k_LCQM65VWC3lbPeh9ntoGYled39qdNZaehm_2vL2G.hvSDvgvTk5m37G1iS6JO2Dm337ISxSKjz6QP4c.wykmL5BZ.MWdo7r..1eYtjrHutVh82QqUhdPdMQRL55CZ6nWgE5PWzzCxhqhtWPSu.F0bFUOwl7tfovRq24LqZYzKN2Ae.0v0AiQR40MGDwy4OuR4tIlNBxo_.JmBXahtNXb836ouuReKywH.2nxVkYU7XvuF.twDMO0l6EDvW0RYyL7I2c9hyqi1wfcLgv8yoD0a4_CMvvLwCKkuPYp9yyvhkhKggub8wuEc79gt799eCdY1_NYbXka4OrkiRuGTYsdvHRwaUTh02.VAK69TAHb7Vik.Vg0Lm3cdtvzZWl9NKH6yAFIlO7C8SCo_w1_aYuT974InTejHGg-- Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:35:29 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:35:29 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I appreciate your detailed response, Colin.=A0 Please see below.=0A> =0A> I= 'm not in a convenient place to create long, clear, expository emails.=0A> = This will not be as complete as I would like.=A0 However, you seem to be=0A= > confused about something for which I might be able to help.=0A> =0A> You = said:=0A> =0A> > The reference to jbofihe (which includes valatai) is on:= =0A> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Dictionaries%2C+Glossers+and+parsers=0A> = > 'jbofihe' is linked to an address which allows you to download=0A> > jbof= ihe-snap_20030418.tar.tar which supposedly includes vlatai.=0A> > How do I = unpack it to get at vlatai? Certainly, WinZip doesn't=0A> > do it.=0A> =0A>= The only reference I can find takes me to http://www.rc0.org.uk/jbofihe/= =0A=0AThe reference is in the third bullet point under the 'Parsers' sub-he= ading.=0A=0A> =0A> =0A> > References to both of these appear on the Wiki on= the=0A> > pages most likely to be used by beginners.=A0 This is not=0A> > = where we want to discourage them from going further!=0A> =0A> You have abso= lutely no argument from me here, but these are packages=0A> produced by peo= ple with more enthusiasm than time.=A0 Clear, complete=0A> and professional= packages take time.=A0 A lot of time.=A0 I certainly=0A> don't have time t= o work on the literally hundreds of things that=0A> I think could be better= ..=0A> =0A> Further, most of these packages are produced by people using Lin= ux and=0A> without access to development tools on Windows.=A0 After all, Li= nux comes=0A> for free with compilers or interpreters for C, C++, Python, A= WK, Perl and=0A> more, and there are freely downloadable packages for langu= ages such as=0A> Pascal, Ruby, OCaml, Haskell, Common Lisp, Scheme, and man= y more.=0A> =0A> Windows comes with Solitaire.=0A> =0A> Making Windows pack= ages is non-trivial.=0A> =0A> I use jbofi'e all the time.=A0 Downloading, u= npacking, compiling and running=0A> was a trivial exercise.=A0 I've never w= orked with LogFlash - I had much the=0A> same problem as you, and I simply = gave up.=0A> =0A> I know that might not help much, but it seems clear that = the lojban wiki=0A> is made by geeks, and generally is not suitable for non= -geeky beginners.=0A> If you would like to build a site more suited to the = non-geeky beginner=0A> then I'm sure people would be happy to provide mater= ials and assistance.=0A> =0A=0AMy intention wasn't to criticize the authors= ..=A0 It was:=0A(1) =A0to make=A0beginner pages more helpful=A0to=A0beginner= s, perticularly those =A0who =0Aare not geeky or technical (that's me: I th= ought Python is a snake).=A0 That =0Adoesn't require a new wiki - just some= rewording, and some extra explanatory phrases.=0A(2) to get to use vlatai = and check out some of my jbovlaste entries.=A0 =0A=0ASo my question is:=0Aw= hat specifically do I (as a Windows user) need to get in order to unpack th= e package =0Aand use vlatai?=0A=0Atotus