From totus@rogers.com Mon Dec 21 05:50:20 2009 Received: from n12.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([209.191.125.209]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMieN-0007Ix-8D for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:50:19 -0800 Received: from [68.142.200.224] by n12.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 13:50:08 -0000 Received: from [76.13.13.26] by t5.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 13:50:08 -0000 Received: from [68.142.237.89] by t3.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 13:50:08 -0000 Received: from [66.196.97.155] by t5.bullet.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 13:50:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp208.mail.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 13:50:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 177035.91084.bm@omp208.mail.re3.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 46223 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2009 13:50:07 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1261403407; bh=NqMiJvDpoKDNoebeU0tyjH0PqUBdrnw3iTMisNSn3/w=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1wL9HfB7/Q0IaE9bqKbe0ETPw/ZgJ8NMDzTYgsiXmOwVYM/EVD+Df6hJKe4kU5shKZhVoZSYJO2TYf7Wz89pllmASiZY9iwcKfiXQTZaOTk97FN9j6pwEyH6ujKCKqvdOO35qr81aSlTt6cdzG09/nupJHhVVWeZou71ptbLZO4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=46vKflrQkyNhvPpKySaKQu3Kc95DzN9r+olQZITbs7wstiZh4rLJB5oYTp/LQkzxQY26J1ulOFfU3GCWbKZat8am6NL2KbbZ4CYES4ZPfhedBF0/EB2BrZXsk8md0ZP3BtDjgvKhp7fg5cuLm2HgKu7/Zb3TBcTccZpWjVe0WdY=; Message-ID: <744419.45758.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: YZwzRO4VM1kuJu4KJeNBpyh0zO4i6sVq839vzly2UXthdaDkOoiEiTAyqN4zdCuRcb37Mxye8HLspawFi021jr9v4qTmROwlDpb_TR0Lei2CO8IuHoUWM6lJwzBTODUTac3gmyh7GAUvClDcXWSuouzSPIbL_mH.Eih4mUhLPbfDE5zhvC99xfVHZ1zZwsxztqM1yIeAP2Gg81S.2Vp.P8Co0FNoypqK6fPdIiaPQ.uk8SQUeesPbMewGb92DsihAre6wNxaKYl5d0YIMyOnDJfd7gw5NrvaQ.DY8WNNHMoIlhgRzKbi6XP9W3OVnLTD0YPexhDcGLDSGT2HPVLcavOgEOV2NAY_RhihIWx6vF0Oy0AEnNUxdVpETlw4rzMPUv1e1JNPPHcguZD1jfI5wEL9CgtrVUBf.Zwvv_30uJF3wTPul.IkroNjvLPxV0IfunoaCdjl6wIsVHH9dn8ByfSmqNGpKycnDUpKTsjg2K55zkLAmxkaBa5vBlc_I0g29J3RDXyASP8cODr2i74MRA-- Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:50:07 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:50:07 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Oren = =0A> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org=0A> Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 8:55:= 49 PM=0A> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash=0A> =0A> I'd = like to help build a site for beginners! One that would=0A> (1) Have a flex= ible lojban-lesson framework=0A> (2) Have a learner's forum so that beginne= rs know they're not alone=0A> (3) Provide a "gateway" to introduce the wiki= , ways to help, how to=0A> use applications etc.=0A> =0A> ...the way I see = it, there's two users and so (at least the appearance=0A> of) two sites wou= ld make things more orderly.=0A> =0A> Category 1: Experienced people. They'= re likely not fluent in lojban,=0A> but they're literate. They may be amate= ur or professional linguists,=0A> programmers or just self-motivated, and s= o they treat lojban very=0A> differently; more like a programming language;= i.e. a tool or=0A> resource. So it's completely natural that there be an o= nline place to=0A> post builds, projects, ideas and esoteric debates for lo= jban.=0A> =0A> Category 2: New people. They hear about lojban and see lojba= n.org and=0A> think "Hey, maybe I'll try to learn this." And then they go v= iew one=0A> of the several endorsed learning materials. But they treat lojb= an like=0A> a human language, and there's nowhere to ask questions on the s= ite,=0A> and no user forum (so no way of knowing that others are studying t= oo).=0A> So when they come back to visit and try to find more materials, th= ey=0A> see a bunch of seemingly non-functional 'works in progress' mixed in= =0A> with vocabulary lists-- and they don't come back a third time.=0A> =0A= > My impression is that nearly all lojbanists on the mailing lists or=0A> a= ctive on one of the websites (jbotcan, lojban.org, jbovlaste) are=0A> self-= motivated and geeky, (that is, of category 1), and that with=0A> growing in= terest worldwide in information technology, multilingualism=0A> or globaliz= ation or whatever, the category 2 user is going to come=0A> more and more o= ften, and they're the people who really need a=0A> "website," not a develop= ment wiki. And lots of category 2 users don't=0A> use mailing lists, irc, o= r google wave.=0A> =0A> My impression of how lojban is used online:=0A> =0A= > lojban.org -> LLG's official web presence, for everyone*=0A> jbovlaste ->= active vocabulary development, for category 1 lojban-geeks=0A> jbotcan, ->= active discussion, for category 1 lojban-geeks=0A> irc, mailing lists, goo= gle wave -> active communication, mostly=0A> category 1 lojban-geeks*=0A> = =0A> *growing category 2 lojban-beginner population=0A> =0A> What I think i= s missing:=0A> beginner website -> Beginner's resources, discussion, intro = to lojban=0A> development=0A> =0A> Or am I way off? I hope that makes sense= ....=0A> =0A> mu'o mi'e .ku'us.=0A> =0A> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 00:47, Coli= n Wright=0A> wrote:=0A> > I'm not in a convenient place to create long, cle= ar, expository emails.=0A> > This will not be as complete as I would like. = =A0However, you seem to be=0A> > confused about something for which I might= be able to help.=0A> >=0A> > You said:=0A> >=0A> >> The reference to jbofi= he (which includes valatai) is on:=0A> >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Dictio= naries%2C+Glossers+and+parsers=0A> >> 'jbofihe' is linked to an address whi= ch allows you to download=0A> >> jbofihe-snap_20030418.tar.tar which suppos= edly includes vlatai.=0A> >> How do I unpack it to get at vlatai? Certainly= , WinZip doesn't=0A> >> do it.=0A> >=0A> > The only reference I can find ta= kes me to http://www.rc0.org.uk/jbofihe/=0A> >=0A> > There we can find a ta= ble, the first entry gives this information:=0A> >=0A> > | Version : snap_2= 0030418=0A> > | Released : 18 April 2003=0A> > | Status : Current trial rel= ease=0A> > | Source code distribution : Available by HTTP (link)=0A> > | MS= DOS binary distribution : None=0A> >=0A> > The link you probably refer to i= s this one:=0A> >=0A> > http://www.rpcurnow.force9.co.uk/jbofihe/jbofihe-sn= ap_20030418.tar.gz=0A> >=0A> > Note: This is a source code distribution, no= t an executable. =A0It does=0A> > not, as you say, link to jbofihe-snap_200= 30418.tar.tar =A0It might be that=0A> > Windows helpfully renames it into t= hat. =A0However, it is a compressed=0A> > tar file, easily uncompressed and= extracted on every system I use, and=0A> > created using systems that have= readily available, free distribution.=0A> > It does not contain a program = you can run. =A0It has source code that you=0A> > will need to compile.=0A>= >=0A> > Probably WinZip isn't one of the packages that can extract it, and= you=0A> > probably don't have a compiler unless you're into programming.= =0A> >=0A> > It may be that Windows has already decompressed it. =A0I would= n't know.=0A> > Windows does try to be helpful, and I can never work out wh= at it's done.=0A> >=0A> >> References to both of these appear on the Wiki o= n the=0A> >> pages most likely to be used by beginners. =A0This is not=0A> = >> where we want to discourage them from going further!=0A> >=0A> > You hav= e absolutely no argument from me here, but these are packages=0A> > produce= d by people with more enthusiasm than time. =A0Clear, complete=0A> > and pr= ofessional packages take time. =A0A lot of time. =A0I certainly=0A> > don't= have time to work on the literally hundreds of things that=0A> > I think c= ould be better.=0A> >=0A> > Further, most of these packages are produced by= people using Linux and=0A> > without access to development tools on Window= s. =A0After all, Linux comes=0A> > for free with compilers or interpreters = for C, C++, Python, AWK, Perl and=0A> > more, and there are freely download= able packages for languages such as=0A> > Pascal, Ruby, OCaml, Haskell, Com= mon Lisp, Scheme, and many more.=0A> >=0A> > Windows comes with Solitaire.= =0A> >=0A> > Making Windows packages is non-trivial.=0A> >=0A> > I use jbof= i'e all the time. =A0Downloading, unpacking, compiling and running=0A> > wa= s a trivial exercise. =A0I've never worked with LogFlash - I had much the= =0A> > same problem as you, and I simply gave up.=0A> >=0A> > I know that m= ight not help much, but it seems clear that the lojban wiki=0A> > is made b= y geeks, and generally is not suitable for non-geeky beginners.=0A> > If yo= u would like to build a site more suited to the non-geeky beginner=0A> > th= en I'm sure people would be happy to provide materials and assistance.=0A> = >=0A> > Rgds,=0A> >=0A> > Colin=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > --=0A> > Denbridge Marine= Limited may monitor email traffic data and the=0A> > content of email for = the purposes of security and staff training.=0A> >=0A> > Denbridge Marine L= imited.=0A> > Registered in England and Wales at DSG, 43 Castle St, Liverpo= ol. L2 9TL.=0A> > Registered Number 4850477=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A