From totus@rogers.com Mon Dec 21 06:33:56 2009 Received: from n7c.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com ([76.13.13.84]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMjKZ-0002h9-FY for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:33:56 -0800 Received: from [76.13.13.25] by n7.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 Received: from [68.142.230.28] by t4.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 Received: from [66.196.97.144] by t1.bullet.re2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp202.mail.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-5 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 116616.75937.bm@omp202.mail.re3.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 22637 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2009 14:33:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1261406024; bh=91jFyPfBJ68T08iWfPu0ycdR22Cwx1uEMJaR4XkukNk=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PwhDMV65x2GC1mQkAphsllLBTe+nf/u3NgUW7XQXwW/6bi+ZQ7GHilMqEFwIRClJR2xJSNhMSZmfxmJUYYg4h2XRvPOnuQ+5eYTJj961dAqJXL1D+aYe+fWIraXydNShM+pDXiUI1aBju3e2/OSz1Vg13h63ARJaKjfcvuUlV1Q= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=P47j0DUbHBp6zsOL6vp3TKiq3eA4wiQb9CJMyGAXiQ/foTcfLVBqwu6tYmCZKoiRsYvEWvWMAETLMtofQ10Xe8MWVX/XHilhxDlQPcHU7VqIzQBcIoI9hiyPpOF2JvZ90aF6wJ6drS+FQtTMsp5Q05OMDaRClWhrCmLi849OojU=; Message-ID: <908284.20249.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: QqHa1ekVM1mzptciZpBLymzHT52qcV8Wm1mIXYLqF2nVfN0CAFRzCxGa5uDj0y.GsXZLO2M3WpTxLGAlGPsG5H9Ugl_EhnmAmL8JBqfBj3BE0TfM8mW1lV4PinO8PEouf588jMNFwGFCXv1Iuxn9ctzBCb0l_nfadMh_cjz4xT8yUWU1aiZ4VlCbgbzwfI3Mr6hZfxPKoZZxbDvEcLI772DMs9VuEP9CFIp2mDc0r.wppiAxWVydBicuys6R5InC0cA69gzJ1ZT9AQN0POxTA3azj2sc_7Oi.0.XMHgvqZfHSf28p3dpzIJaMf6m9GbJwoFiEUcOtkRkU9sSGu.7cnSMy.r1as0pV6KM7Ur3fZwXcmVuScGJYd9pSxtZVx7HN7jAt.Uu4JfzpDDDtRe.XJEgu8EJU3nlZOhLNKfZfvEqpZtlPqz7L9Le.FU_.gYQoArAOOF321bRd0HCKynWOCz20uUWnWQIv7KDdc30BL0CaJz9zCoKKPhplEQfU8isEZiART3K0XpGHA-- Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:33:44 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:33:44 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I really support your initiative.=A0 I started off about 3 years ago as a = =0ACategory 2 by your definition.=A0 My background is marketing communicati= ons; =0AI've never programmed a line of code in my life.=0A=0ACurrently, I'= m reading the texts, creating sets of all gismu for Quizlet (they are =0Ano= t all online yet), and contributing to jbovlaste.=0A=0AI have to say that I= have been motivated by the language itself and by a few helpful =0Aindivid= uals who have shown extraordinary patience with the slowness of my progress= ..=0A=0AI have also been demotivated by =0A(1)=A0A lack of interest among ma= ny in the lojban establishment to attract =0Anon-technical newbies like me.= =A0I believe this is the main reason why the lojban =0Acommunity remains so= small after so many years and probably is still below =0A'critical mass'.= =0A(2)=A0The continued propagation of the myth that the BPFK=A0is finalizin= g =0Acmavo definitions and some points of grammar.=A0 This is preventing, a= mong other things, =0Athe production of the revised CLL and the 'complete' = dictionary.=0A=0AFresh blood is needed, and it needs to come from many walk= s of life.=A0 A website targetting =0Abeginners would be a great first step= - and I would love to help.=0A=0ABy the way, Jim Dabell started something = like this a year ago.=A0 You may want to contact =0Ahim=A0 directly. See ht= tp://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners@lojban.org/msg03798.html=0A=0A= =0Atotus=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Oren =0A> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org=0A> Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 8:5= 5:49 PM=0A> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash=0A> =0A> I'= d like to help build a site for beginners! One that would=0A> (1) Have a fl= exible lojban-lesson framework=0A> (2) Have a learner's forum so that begin= ners know they're not alone=0A> (3) Provide a "gateway" to introduce the wi= ki, ways to help, how to=0A> use applications etc.=0A> =0A> ...the way I se= e it, there's two users and so (at least the appearance=0A> of) two sites w= ould make things more orderly.=0A> =0A> Category 1: Experienced people. The= y're likely not fluent in lojban,=0A> but they're literate. They may be ama= teur or professional linguists,=0A> programmers or just self-motivated, and= so they treat lojban very=0A> differently; more like a programming languag= e; i.e. a tool or=0A> resource. So it's completely natural that there be an= online place to=0A> post builds, projects, ideas and esoteric debates for = lojban.=0A> =0A> Category 2: New people. They hear about lojban and see loj= ban.org and=0A> think "Hey, maybe I'll try to learn this." And then they go= view one=0A> of the several endorsed learning materials. But they treat lo= jban like=0A> a human language, and there's nowhere to ask questions on the= site,=0A> and no user forum (so no way of knowing that others are studying= too).=0A> So when they come back to visit and try to find more materials, = they=0A> see a bunch of seemingly non-functional 'works in progress' mixed = in=0A> with vocabulary lists-- and they don't come back a third time.=0A> = =0A> My impression is that nearly all lojbanists on the mailing lists or=0A= > active on one of the websites (jbotcan, lojban.org, jbovlaste) are=0A> se= lf-motivated and geeky, (that is, of category 1), and that with=0A> growing= interest worldwide in information technology, multilingualism=0A> or globa= lization or whatever, the category 2 user is going to come=0A> more and mor= e often, and they're the people who really need a=0A> "website," not a deve= lopment wiki. And lots of category 2 users don't=0A> use mailing lists, irc= , or google wave.=0A> =0A> My impression of how lojban is used online:=0A> = =0A> lojban.org -> LLG's official web presence, for everyone*=0A> jbovlaste= -> active vocabulary development, for category 1 lojban-geeks=0A> jbotcan,= -> active discussion, for category 1 lojban-geeks=0A> irc, mailing lists, = google wave -> active communication, mostly=0A> category 1 lojban-geeks*=0A= > =0A> *growing category 2 lojban-beginner population=0A> =0A> What I think= is missing:=0A> beginner website -> Beginner's resources, discussion, intr= o to lojban=0A> development=0A> =0A> Or am I way off? I hope that makes sen= se...=0A> =0A