From get.oren@gmail.com Mon Dec 21 07:48:52 2009 Received: from mail-pz0-f193.google.com ([209.85.222.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMkUw-0005T0-8l for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:48:52 -0800 Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so3562849pzk.28 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:48:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fOr8fqO5VtXBWboKrigQwhJ7uuCVFcbHafiSuKTJ6w4=; b=xB8oJv+YRoqHIDESN8WzwHJh0Gq90DAezdyHJ/tZIg3ZGaB1jibp0mxu+nSiWY6EcD 2n9qPXkRKkVid5ele+dOtw8oyjQcwIf8+MpSFPR4QCqcxHptYKwzev3kok2dqQaEfC/I MKDS4A+dth+6YqAX9csX/n6MiEp7xJuTm/SEM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Q7EAHsNRvNhNRazpJmUzKbdirQOLLbzR6RANzBLgDepCf646tnvOhIJmYy5mKvtUYU ipvTLduIGtO0g5w89uHLOazmwpGgl5ZenTXed75u9ZEimHaf27FleAp/gO7fkgXqkUcE Y/Veuwr+YfREEw6jLnQdkEKWPTz4leTyiJDHI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.119.24 with SMTP id r24mr4888589wfc.291.1261410511998; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:48:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <908284.20249.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> <908284.20249.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:48:31 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 08dc647ea85b3fd4 Message-ID: <27513e550912210748t494865el580d1a0ab8312ee1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash From: =?UTF-8?B?55m95p2+IE9yZW4=?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi again, Thanks for replying so positively! I was afraid that I was crazy for writing down this idea... but there's at least one other crazy person =3D). I'd love to see/hear/work-of-of other other ideas that have preceded this conversation; after all I'm relatively new on the mailing lists myself, I joined this autumn. However, I can't seem to find a way to contact Jim Dabell from that archive you linked to, and the link in the archive (to the mock-up website) appears to be a blank webpage now... I think I found his profile on Linkedin, Sourceforge, jim.dabell.name and Djangopeople (via google), but can't seem to find an email! Any ideas? =3Dp Anyhow, it's bedtime in Beijing, .ui mu'o! On 2009-12-21, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > I really support your initiative.=A0 I started off about 3 years ago as a > Category 2 by your definition.=A0 My background is marketing communicatio= ns; > I've never programmed a line of code in my life. > > Currently, I'm reading the texts, creating sets of all gismu for Quizlet > (they are > not all online yet), and contributing to jbovlaste. > > I have to say that I have been motivated by the language itself and by a = few > helpful > individuals who have shown extraordinary patience with the slowness of my > progress.. > > I have also been demotivated by > (1)=A0A lack of interest among many in the lojban establishment to attrac= t > non-technical newbies like me.=A0I believe this is the main reason why th= e > lojban > community remains so small after so many years and probably is still belo= w > 'critical mass'. > (2)=A0The continued propagation of the myth that the BPFK=A0is finalizing > cmavo definitions and some points of grammar.=A0 This is preventing, amon= g > other things, > the production of the revised CLL and the 'complete' dictionary. > > Fresh blood is needed, and it needs to come from many walks of life.=A0 A > website targetting > beginners would be a great first step - and I would love to help. > > By the way, Jim Dabell started something like this a year ago.=A0 You may= want > to contact > him=A0 directly. See > http://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners@lojban.org/msg03798.html > > > totus > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Oren >> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org >> Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 8:55:49 PM >> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash >> >> I'd like to help build a site for beginners! One that would >> (1) Have a flexible lojban-lesson framework >> (2) Have a learner's forum so that beginners know they're not alone >> (3) Provide a "gateway" to introduce the wiki, ways to help, how to >> use applications etc. >> >> ...the way I see it, there's two users and so (at least the appearance >> of) two sites would make things more orderly. >> >> Category 1: Experienced people. They're likely not fluent in lojban, >> but they're literate. They may be amateur or professional linguists, >> programmers or just self-motivated, and so they treat lojban very >> differently; more like a programming language; i.e. a tool or >> resource. So it's completely natural that there be an online place to >> post builds, projects, ideas and esoteric debates for lojban. >> >> Category 2: New people. They hear about lojban and see lojban.org and >> think "Hey, maybe I'll try to learn this." And then they go view one >> of the several endorsed learning materials. But they treat lojban like >> a human language, and there's nowhere to ask questions on the site, >> and no user forum (so no way of knowing that others are studying too). >> So when they come back to visit and try to find more materials, they >> see a bunch of seemingly non-functional 'works in progress' mixed in >> with vocabulary lists-- and they don't come back a third time. >> >> My impression is that nearly all lojbanists on the mailing lists or >> active on one of the websites (jbotcan, lojban.org, jbovlaste) are >> self-motivated and geeky, (that is, of category 1), and that with >> growing interest worldwide in information technology, multilingualism >> or globalization or whatever, the category 2 user is going to come >> more and more often, and they're the people who really need a >> "website," not a development wiki. And lots of category 2 users don't >> use mailing lists, irc, or google wave. >> >> My impression of how lojban is used online: >> >> lojban.org -> LLG's official web presence, for everyone* >> jbovlaste -> active vocabulary development, for category 1 lojban-geeks >> jbotcan, -> active discussion, for category 1 lojban-geeks >> irc, mailing lists, google wave -> active communication, mostly >> category 1 lojban-geeks* >> >> *growing category 2 lojban-beginner population >> >> What I think is missing: >> beginner website -> Beginner's resources, discussion, intro to lojban >> development >> >> Or am I way off? I hope that makes sense... >> > > > > > >