From get.oren@gmail.com Tue Dec 22 07:51:46 2009 Received: from mail-px0-f198.google.com ([209.85.216.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NN71P-00024T-5v for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:51:46 -0800 Received: by pxi36 with SMTP id 36so4203210pxi.26 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:51:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ULmI02sH+B60w5ZbgJys+PBh5xLeNMBGaOUi4kdSGEQ=; b=rfsFqhSgEtjH9c+hBfli4xz4B0WjlwBmSRTRfgnGa8FNCFZCF+FtStIq5zKNgC8Hj4 s2R077LTDEeP/wx2AOGlqrJdC6keyrwpSaRFQERLuTajD3Lgscl4qpIHvaudXpXNqMnh UIRwOE0fSTfv++sUbdHyfVB35pZyfvY0c8V6E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=UrqzMu+YC2cDPvtKMH0+NyN1a6HzaHhL/+vC+8o6pjy6ZEly3jADsBHciSLkk5t23Z K9p1jlidPsslZV/XiDV+KWsNe3D0CPEvGe5E1h93YO+VagQZ/tCCgseTKRDqPvq/KoHi GR7AnRn4tYuweofy+BrrXgi3PkRsGfnG/JmDk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.21.41 with SMTP id y41mr5892949wfi.209.1261497092284; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:51:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <330650.65926.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> <200912211327.37550.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60912211122g130717c8ja5edfa04d77a0825@mail.gmail.com> <110822.32761.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <27513e550912211713s6a3b85c2ya5d86d86de39d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <330650.65926.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:51:12 +0800 Message-ID: <27513e550912220751x757995cbi4e80e17aeaf1d2eb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502cb2412215a047b532eaf --00504502cb2412215a047b532eaf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yea, I think there's definitely some high-quality lessons on lojban.orgalready, and more good ones being produced on google wave as well. I see the two approaches (lessons and submitted sentences) as being a pretty solid model; there's two more things I think might complete the system: Rich dictionary entries I think that the idea to show rafsi in practical use is great; and I think the best way to flesh out gismu entries (and cmavo, eventually lujvo too) is to have dictionary entries that can have example sentences and comments/questions, a record for common questions that people have about usage etc. The entry for each word could (should) have rafsi examples if applicable, natural language origins if applicable, and example usage (possibly more). Flash Cards If people get the initiative to make flashcard groups for lessons, just make them and link to them on smart.fm, which seems to be the best free platform-independent flashcard solution I can find. The only things that come close are jar files (like jMemorize) or not as flexible or intuitive as smart.fm. And for advanced users, I think lojban reading is a great idea. Maybe eventually audio/video files... I'm an optimist. So... 1) Lesson directory 2) Forums & Sentence Submission 3) Detailed dictionary with Comments 4) Possible links to flashcards 5) Advanced study materials ...any other study style missing? And, yes, I realize all of these things *could technically* happen on the current lojban wiki, but I contend that the wiki format is not optimal for beginner language websites; because to your average web user: 1) wikis lack an immediate communication medium like commenting, (not everyone does mailing lists) 2) wikis lack a consistent, accessible record of conversations (which happen a lot with lojban!), and 3) presenting lojban development alongside lojban learning can be discouraging to beginners More thoughts? .au mi'e ku'us .i co'o On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 23:17, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > > > Part of offering help to language learners is presenting flexible > techniques; some people prefer flashcards, some prefer fill-in-the-blank > questions, some like to read a lot of examples. Some like to see grammar > spelled out, some like to grab colloquial usage and eventually come to > understand the rules. Some people don't really know their preference. > > One idea for the simplest data model I can imagine that allows freedom in > learning is: > > Lojban Sentence Submission (by anyone): lojban, natlang, and comments on > one page > Use a blog-like web-page format of sentence case-studies with associated > comments to provide a web-accessible learning database for lojbanistas > (anyone interested in lojban). > > Scenario 1 > * Lojbanists who already know their stuff can put submit lojban sentences > with either/both linguistic, thorough glosses and natural language (possibly > multilingual) renditions. > * Beginners can search by keyword, vocab word, grammar, etc. They find the > sentence, they ask a question in the comments, and something like what > happens on this mailing list gets recorded in an easily visible webpage form > > Scenario 2 > * Beginners can submit a lojban sentence and an attempt at natlang > translation, or vice-versa, or even just a natlang sentence they want to > know how to say in lojban. > * Lojbanists fill it in, and use the comments to discuss, like this > mailing list, any tricky grammar points etc. > > Scenario 3 > (maybe a bit more fun) > * Same as scenario 1 or 2, except the lojban sentence leaves a _____ blank > to be filled in. A lojbanist might use this to write a 'textbook problem' or > to overcome jolban writers block, and a beginner can use this technique to > answer questions, or test the expressive limits of lojban. > > Several days ago I mailed a data model for a language-lesson format. This > solution seems to be a bit more tailored to lojban, because it seems the > bulk of lojban conversation takes this form naturally (a text excerpt, then > a collaborative linguistic dissection with interspersed grammar questions). > The two structures could overlap (sentences as a searchable content type are > used in both). > > Any thoughts/suggestions? > I can't say I prefer any one scenario over the others - they all look good > to me. > However, the important point is that different people learn in different > ways. > For me, the reading of texts is the most important. > > The problem with this is that there's a bunch of texts on the wiki, with no > > differentiation between completed well-written ones that have been vetted > by several experienced lojbanists, and ones that are poorly written or > incomplete. > Obviously a beginner should start off with a 'good' text and leave the ones > that > need vetting till later. I understand that once there was a plan to have > 'officially > approved' texts, but that is probably impractical at this time. > > So I suggest that the website includes some recommended texts, with the > recommendation based on some reasonable criteria. > > totus > > --00504502cb2412215a047b532eaf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yea, I think there's definitely some high-quality less= ons on lojban.org already, and more good = ones being produced on google wave as well. I see the two approaches (lesso= ns and submitted sentences) as being a pretty solid model; there's two = more things I think might complete the system:

Rich dictionary entries
I think that the idea to show rafsi in pract= ical use is great; and I think the best way to flesh out gismu entries (and= cmavo, eventually lujvo too) is to have dictionary entries that can have e= xample sentences and comments/questions, a record for common questions that= people have about usage etc. The entry for each word could (should) have r= afsi examples if applicable, natural language origins if applicable, and ex= ample usage (possibly more).

Flash Cards
If people get the initiative to make flashcard groups fo= r lessons, just make them and link to them on s= mart.fm, which seems to be the best free platform-independent flashcard= solution I can find. The only things that come close are jar files (like j= Memorize) or not as flexible or intuitive as sm= art.fm.

And for advanced users, I think lojban reading is a great idea. Maybe e= ventually audio/video files... I'm an optimist.

So...
1) Less= on directory
2) Forums & Sentence Submission
3) Detailed dictiona= ry with Comments
4) Possible links to flashcards
5) Advanced study materials
...any ot= her study style missing?

And, yes, I realize all of these things *co= uld technically* happen on the current lojban wiki, but I contend that the = wiki format is not optimal for beginner language websites; because to your = average web user:

1) wikis lack an immediate communication medium like commenting, (not e= veryone does mailing lists)
2) wikis lack a consistent, accessible recor= d of conversations (which happen a lot with lojban!), and
3) presenting = lojban development alongside lojban learning can be discouraging to beginne= rs

More thoughts? .au
mi'e ku'us .i co'o

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 23:17, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com>= wrote:



Part of offering help to language learners is presenting f= lexible techniques; some people prefer flashcards, some prefer fill-in-the-= blank questions, some like to read a lot of examples. Some like to see gram= mar spelled out, some like to grab colloquial usage and eventually come to = understand the rules. Some people don't really know their preference.
One idea for the simplest data model I can imagine that allows freedom = in learning is:

Lojban Sentence Submission (by anyone): lojban, natl= ang, and comments on one page
Use a blog-like web-page format of sentenc= e case-studies with associated comments to provide a web-accessible learnin= g database for lojbanistas (anyone interested in lojban).

Scenario 1
=A0* Lojbanists who already know their stuff can put subm= it lojban sentences with either/both linguistic, thorough glosses and natur= al language (possibly multilingual) renditions.
=A0* Beginners can searc= h by keyword, vocab word, grammar, etc. They find the sentence, they ask a ques= tion in the comments, and something like what happens on this mailing list = gets recorded in an easily visible webpage form

Scenario 2
=A0* B= eginners can submit a lojban sentence and an attempt at natlang translation= , or vice-versa, or even just a natlang sentence they want to know how to s= ay in lojban.
=A0* Lojbanists fill it in, and use the comments to discuss, like this mail= ing list, any tricky grammar points etc.

Scenario 3
(maybe a bit = more fun)
=A0* Same as scenario 1 or 2, except the lojban sentence leave= s a _____ blank to be filled in. A lojbanist might use this to write a '= ;textbook problem' or to overcome jolban writers block, and a beginner = can use this technique to answer questions, or test the expressive limits o= f lojban.

Several days ago I mailed a data model for a language-lesson format. Th= is solution seems to be a bit more tailored to lojban, because it seems the bulk of lojban conversation takes= this form naturally (a text excerpt, then a collaborative linguistic disse= ction with interspersed grammar questions). The two structures could overla= p (sentences as a searchable content type are used in both).

Any thoughts/suggestions?
I can't say I prefer any one scenario over the o= thers - they all look good to me.
However, the important point is that different people lear= n in different ways.=A0
For me, the reading of texts is the most important.
=A0
The problem with this is that there's a bunch of texts= on the wiki, with no
differentiation between completed well-written ones that h= ave been vetted
by several experienced lojbanists, and ones that are poorl= y written or incomplete.
Obviously a beginner should start off with a 'good'= ; text and leave the ones that
need vetting till later.=A0 I understand that once there w= as a plan to have 'officially
approved' texts, but that is probably impractical at t= his time.
=A0
So I suggest that the website includes some recommended te= xts, with the
recommendation based on some reasonable criteria.
=A0
totus

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