From totus@rogers.com Wed Dec 23 06:44:43 2009 Received: from n11.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([209.191.125.210]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NNSS6-0006L1-FU for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:44:43 -0800 Received: from [68.142.200.226] by n11.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 14:44:31 -0000 Received: from [76.13.13.26] by t7.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 14:44:31 -0000 Received: from [68.142.230.28] by t3.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 14:44:31 -0000 Received: from [66.196.114.72] by t1.bullet.re2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 14:44:31 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp301.mail.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 14:44:31 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 308668.79661.bm@omp301.mail.re3.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 29898 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Dec 2009 14:44:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1261579471; bh=fStpDHsNSMZsfadNTy3d2VXB7vLJ0e94CUCPMZNnAl0=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=WKXHeb9+scHDqb2UJhGqRc1OiBFASzKEtzXKZun3kSR0ux908L3w4Xc8JE6oflYpDsTf/fPOS2BCE0S9hRo3c5yCanXiOqWs4VQv8fdCxYB9C30DoPq9wIyodsao/rGVQjfll2J8+suTKYLi2Hx+JjrQwRxZFrybi3K1xMpCHF4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=aNirj8TOlFyj+UezQ+C6xNTia3qhZnI8W9cZm5q22sBNacecovJ7x6ZChVDVhg/yCdSOASo9+yl0sL5eXoucMwzGFj4jsny1U0hDDH0bfDdLNp3Gq0mc48IfmlQbaUDjgu1IVHmjMwNThrtiyEjdsRmACl0wA95n37f+B3RcC3M=; Message-ID: <82471.28871.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: yrdSIYoVM1mUrrtZqDt.qt5p6bLt8t0LcmPmZk1FbSvlQbPjvMbXPSg97XKKZw484GR0giG95i9HMsv83rrQF82odxZwMTOR70aaI3Hc5fkE3id3X_9GMZV3r7UwHPUWTCeA79pdKSPi7crwzaMvDdGwJzFklNgHSKs8hCgQ1qlzwqgJRw54hV_ursfidexqW0ki1xkEZfzZqOtLJTBXw0N9RhhWR7.u8wqR4gP.6PxO8y1ckrQF97A0Ubq0HsWN3XJMWE.yPsd0slaw53iJvtD8LGu6ulTEn7ghHYdCHKqjjAudP_ai8REucj27bfXsm1CHqquNv6soa4m_BDfL2Y8tGlCOsOL.ryXG_.YZ9_KitUJzSaTfYScAJW9KP9cjALJDXnI5Kjt.4vCkJZgvNDC7dG_XmqcHBfyHzpsWwvJJfh8OSXIA.XdRyaAzPTjBwDB6XJVkf2o- Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:44:30 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <27513e550912221954g8553b15t2447129b7cce0caf@mail.gmail.com> <915587.54171.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200912231312.13521.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:44:30 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <200912231312.13521.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With respect, Colin, you are missing the point.=A0We are no longer talking = about =0Avlatai, but=A0about how we communicate to non-techie beginners.=A0= They will be challenged =0Aenough with lojban.=A0 They should not have to = resort to dictionaries and Google =0Ato figure out what is supposedly being= communicated in English.=A0 The onus to =0Aachieve effective communication= s is ALWAYS on the communicator, and not =0Aon the intended recipient.=0A= =0AI have heard similar arguements to yours from physicians and lawyers (no= t to =0Amention my IT clients).=A0 Yet I have a family doctor who always ma= nages to talk =0Aintelligibly with his patients, no matter how technical th= e issue or how low their level =0Aof education. I also=A0have a lawyer who = never seems to have a problem =0Aof being understood by his clients even in= the most complicated cases.=A0 It can be =0Adone and, in Lojbanistan,=A0it= =A0should be done now.=A0=A0"Eventually" is not good enough.=A0=A0=A0=0AEve= ntually, lojban may end up in the graveyard of so many other constructed la= ngauges.=0A=0Atotus=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Colin Wri= ght =0A> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org= =0A> Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:12:13 AM=0A> Subject: [lojban-beginners= ] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and logflash=0A> =0A> =0A> > This exch= ange of emails is a good reminder to us all about=0A> > how carefully we wi= ll need to communicate to our intended=0A> > audience through the intended = beginners website.=0A> =0A> > I may not have ever have written a line of co= de, but I have=0A> > worked many years in IT companies (sales, marketing, m= arketing=0A> > communications).=A0 Many beginners will be even further remo= ved=0A> > from the the world of IT.=0A> =0A> Part of the problem is that pr= eparing software for a non-programming audience =0A> is at least ten times = harder, possibly 100 times harder, than hacking out =0A> something that's u= seful to those willing to learn a bit about how these =0A> things work.=A0 = People who don't work in programming have no inkling as to the =0A> efforts= needed to convert something a hacker can use into something the =0A> gener= al populace won't instantly break.=A0 My parents, for example, would never = =0A> be able to use any of the lojban tools.=A0 My wife, although non-techn= ical, can =0A> follow most of the instructions, but needs coaxing through s= ome of the more =0A> obscure parts, and if something goes wrong she doesn't= know what to try next.=0A> =0A> I have perhaps a dozen tools that I use da= ily, and colleagues use daily, that =0A> would take months if not years to = turn into consumer products.=0A> =0A> > By the way, what's KDE?=A0 I suspec= t something American.=A0 Well,=0A> > I'm not an American and I assume we wa= nt non-American beginners too.=0A> =0A> This is part of the problem.=A0 Did= you try using Google?=0A> =0A> =A0 =A0 http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=3D= KDE=0A> =0A> Top hit:=0A> =0A> =A0 =A0 " KDE is a powerful graphical deskto= p=0A> =A0 =A0 =A0 environment for Unix workstations. "=0A> =0A> In my versi= on of an IT world people would at least try checking Google before =0A> ask= ing a question like that.=A0 My wife would, my parents wouldn't.=0A> =0A> W= hile I'm extremely happy that you're enthusiastic about lojban and clearly = =0A> interested in helping, I have no insight into the mindset of a person = who =0A> wouldn't use Google to research that sort of question before comin= g straight =0A> back out and asking.=0A> =0A> Without people like you this = project will forever remain an obscure, cultish, =0A> techie-only backwater= ..=A0 You're absolutely right that for lojban eventually to =0A> expand and = become more mainstream, it's people like you we need to cater for.=A0 =0A> = =0A> But I have no idea how to do that.=0A> =0A> =0A> mi'e kolin.=0A> -- = =0A> Dr C.D.Wright, Director of Innovation and Engineering=0A> Denbridge Ma= rine Limited, Cammell Lairds Waterfront Park,=0A> Campbeltown Road, Birkenh= ead, Wirral, Merseyside, CH41 9HP.=0A> =0A> Tel: +44 (0)151 649 4080=0A> Fa= x: +44 (0)870 051 8953=0A> Mob: +44 (0)7980 57 22 96=0A> =0A> Denbridge Mar= ine Limited may monitor email traffic data and the=0A> content of email for= the purposes of security and staff training.=0A> =0A> Denbridge Marine Lim= ited.=0A> Registered in England and Wales, Company Number 4850477=0A> Regis= tered office: DSG, 43 Castle St, Liverpool. L2 9TL.=0A