From colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com Wed Dec 23 10:13:43 2009 Received: from mailgate.denbridgemarine.com ([83.104.25.50]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NNViK-000475-3C for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:13:41 -0800 Received: from strontium.elements (support.denbridgemarine.com [83.104.25.51]) (using SSLv3 with cipher EXP1024-RC4-SHA (56/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mailgate.denbridgemarine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1D76049EE for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:13:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Colin Wright Organization: Denbridge Marine Ltd To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: Re: Site for beginners. Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:13:32 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200912231312.13521.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> <82471.28871.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <82471.28871.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200912231813.32395.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> > With respect, Colin, you are missing the point.=A0We are no longer talking > about vlatai, but=A0about how we communicate to non-techie beginners.=A0 = They > will be challenged enough with lojban.=A0 They should not have to resort = to > dictionaries and Google to figure out what is supposedly being communicat= ed > in English.=A0 The onus to achieve effective communications is ALWAYS on = the > communicator, and not on the intended recipient. Perhaps I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. I am agreeing with you,=20 pretty much entirely. I am trying to point out the difference between peop= le=20 like my parents and people like those who produce the software. You are=20 absolutely right that the software and terminology creates a barrier. You= =20 are absolutely right that the barrier needs to be removed before lojban can= =20 hit the mainstream. As I said: cdw> Without people like you this project will forever remain an cdw> obscure, cultish, techie-only backwater.. You're absolutely cdw> right that for lojban eventually to expand and become more cdw> mainstream, it's people like you we need to cater for. And even though I said that, you appear to have missed my point. You are=20 asking that we understand how non-techies think, and what non-techies need,= =20 and in return I'm trying to help you understand how techies think. =20 Communication needs to be two way. > I have heard similar arguments to yours from physicians > and lawyers (not to mention my IT clients). I have made no arguments - what position do you think I hold? I assure you= =20 that I am in complete agreement that access to lojban needs to be more=20 "user-friendly" and accessible to non-technies. > Yet I have a family doctor who always manages to talk intelligibly > with his patients, no matter how technical the issue or how low > their level of education. I also=A0have a lawyer who never seems to > have a problem of being understood by his clients even in the most > complicated cases. And these are people who are paid to work on these things full-time. Furth= er,=20 I have met and dealt with many people who do *not* understand what their=20 doctors and lawyers are telling them, even if they think they do. But let'= s=20 leave that to one side and be less cynical and more optimistic. I have no doubt that a sufficiently gifted and talented programmer can make= =20 all of the lojban tools sufficiently robust and accessible for non-techies = to=20 have no trouble using them. I'm trying to tell you that the time required = is=20 almost certainly much, much more than you expect. In my line of work we take the time taken to produce a workable demonstrati= on=20 and then multiply by ten in order to get an estimate for when something wil= l=20 be ready for market. If you want someone not to have to follow instruction= s,=20 not to have to look things up, not to have to ask questions, then the time= =20 taken will be even longer. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can be done and should be do= ne. > It can be done and, in Lojbanistan,=A0it should be done now. > "Eventually" is not good enough. Eventually, lojban may end > up in the graveyard of so many other constructed langauges.=20 I agree. Now, here's the point. I was looking at the suggestions being ma= de=20 and I thought "Cool, I'd like to use that." So I started estimates for how= =20 long it would take me, personally, working full time to produce it. My=20 estimate is about a month for me working full time. That means it would be= =20 ready for prime-time usage in about a year. Not going to happen. There are people *much* more talented than I. Assume one of them could kno= ck=20 it up in a week. That means it's ready for prime-time in 3 months, assumin= g=20 they are willing to put in the nitpicking, uninteresting, tedious and=20 apparently never-ending work to make it sufficiently bulletproof. Not going to happen. Maybe my estimates are way off. Maybe something can be made to work in two= or=20 three weekends of hacking. I'd love to see it. Any volunteers? Sorry, but I've just myself really, really depressed. Maybe someone can=20 produce a more optimistic analysis. mi'e kolin. =2D-=20 Dr C.D.Wright, Director of Innovation and Engineering Denbridge Marine Limited, Cammell Lairds Waterfront Park, Campbeltown Road, Birkenhead, Wirral, Merseyside, CH41 9HP. Tel: +44 (0)151 649 4080 =46ax: +44 (0)870 051 8953 Mob: +44 (0)7980 57 22 96 Denbridge Marine Limited may monitor email traffic data and the content of email for the purposes of security and staff training. Denbridge Marine Limited. Registered in England and Wales, Company Number 4850477 Registered office: DSG, 43 Castle St, Liverpool. L2 9TL.