From totus@rogers.com Wed Dec 23 11:41:19 2009 Received: from n7.bullet.re3.yahoo.com ([68.142.237.92]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NNX58-0003SE-MS for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:41:19 -0800 Received: from [68.142.230.28] by n7.bullet.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 19:39:03 -0000 Received: from [66.196.97.133] by t1.bullet.re2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 19:39:03 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp106.mail.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Dec 2009 19:39:03 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 54954.32420.bm@omp106.mail.re3.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 37949 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Dec 2009 19:39:03 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1261597142; bh=zGxuLDMrKmTZyDMD90yG7WMld33yuU0HeszVliT3HdM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=g9q+ZY5PtdVD1ut0C4yPfL/V4L0Nu087u4IBZ3ZwqPXVTZQKL6PLO+u3NRglFiNIy/qH0jprhgXOsIyJYCjaSqXbTLOKrr7OzhKed9FRKFoK+9xKqDImSnJn3PEIzpwYNwmrjI0oCtb7vuPo/YlLhlRMpSG9twqaeXCsdkZUnA8= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FsHHym2NbwQ6tOAh1kyCBP1bu/z1bqdw7MksfGCaZCPAFFABrXNyfFQE52IFNEVfNCK/M9W7sQrOO9IxkpZkVXz2aZZ76oq9GH0HtzgbloZ6juwIoK8XXkqXOL1wzAesUTIAazJd/3BJHm31jISzoxqKG3q0t5NO5c+zyRH/YsA=; Message-ID: <908274.37912.qm@web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: xMbFuiUVM1n0CLhlyKWq9xwUeIWuFttEoxgeArspxCK7OPnO9iD0Vg_uof9nMDyrLO1xWysTzImdT36778_JetJwX02K.l6.zmmPlBTYzyK_8fHgmHHYXnxGDjdOazZfcYYrTDmVSH.hblMVqs1zErr55xFA9_23ZXQQ1ZaNPq2Qbn7crTVKeJmynFRSBPDD1Z3z_V_2G3H2VtjDpbJXvUvQiGrmph.US4wl8tx8IW0QDukRo9d3RxsQFs7Jf.TeGe6bFvSTcds6jKvavtfH4SVbzDU2KO.M7SjXw8DkVySsMpPhTmZti6Fk Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:39:02 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200912231312.13521.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> <82471.28871.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200912231813.32395.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:39:02 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners. To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <200912231813.32395.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess we've both said all we can say=0A.=A0 Time to end this:)=0A=0Atotus= =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Colin Wright =0A> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org=0A> Sent: Wed, Dece= mber 23, 2009 1:13:32 PM=0A> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for begin= ners.=0A> =0A> =0A> > With respect, Colin, you are missing the point.=A0We = are no longer talking=0A> > about vlatai, but=A0about how we communicate to= non-techie beginners.=A0 They=0A> > will be challenged enough with lojban.= =A0 They should not have to resort to=0A> > dictionaries and Google to figu= re out what is supposedly being communicated=0A> > in English.=A0 The onus = to achieve effective communications is ALWAYS on the=0A> > communicator, an= d not on the intended recipient.=0A> =0A> Perhaps I didn't make myself suff= iciently clear.=A0 I am agreeing with you, =0A> pretty much entirely.=A0 I = am trying to point out the difference between people =0A> like my parents a= nd people like those who produce the software.=A0 You are =0A> absolutely r= ight that the software and terminology creates a barrier.=A0 You =0A> are a= bsolutely right that the barrier needs to be removed before lojban can =0A>= hit the mainstream.=A0 As I said:=0A> =0A> cdw> Without people like you th= is project will forever remain an=0A> cdw> obscure, cultish, techie-only ba= ckwater..=A0 You're absolutely=0A> cdw> right that for lojban eventually to= expand and become more=0A> cdw> mainstream, it's people like you we need t= o cater for.=0A> =0A> And even though I said that, you appear to have misse= d my point.=A0 You are =0A> asking that we understand how non-techies think= , and what non-techies need, =0A> and in return I'm trying to help you unde= rstand how techies think.=A0 =0A> Communication needs to be two way.=0A> = =0A> > I have heard similar arguments to yours from physicians=0A> > and la= wyers (not to mention my IT clients).=0A> =0A> I have made no arguments - w= hat position do you think I hold?=A0 I assure you =0A> that I am in complet= e agreement that access to lojban needs to be more =0A> "user-friendly" and= accessible to non-technies.=0A> =0A> > Yet I have a family doctor who alwa= ys manages to talk intelligibly=0A> > with his patients, no matter how tech= nical the issue or how low=0A> > their level of education. I also=A0have a = lawyer who never seems to=0A> > have a problem of being understood by his c= lients even in the most=0A> > complicated cases.=0A> =0A> And these are peo= ple who are paid to work on these things full-time.=A0 Further, =0A> I have= met and dealt with many people who do *not* understand what their =0A> doc= tors and lawyers are telling them, even if they think they do.=A0 But let's= =0A> leave that to one side and be less cynical and more optimistic.=0A> = =0A> I have no doubt that a sufficiently gifted and talented programmer can= make =0A> all of the lojban tools sufficiently robust and accessible for n= on-techies to =0A> have no trouble using them.=A0 I'm trying to tell you th= at the time required is =0A> almost certainly much, much more than you expe= ct.=0A> =0A> In my line of work we take the time taken to produce a workabl= e demonstration =0A> and then multiply by ten in order to get an estimate f= or when something will =0A> be ready for market.=A0 If you want someone not= to have to follow instructions, =0A> not to have to look things up, not to= have to ask questions, then the time =0A> taken will be even longer.=0A> = =0A> I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can be done and should = be done.=0A> =0A> > It can be done and, in Lojbanistan,=A0it should be done= now.=0A> > "Eventually" is not good enough. Eventually, lojban may end=0A>= > up in the graveyard of so many other constructed langauges. =0A> =0A> I = agree.=A0 Now, here's the point.=A0 I was looking at the suggestions being = made =0A> and I thought "Cool, I'd like to use that."=A0 So I started estim= ates for how =0A> long it would take me, personally, working full time to p= roduce it.=A0 My =0A> estimate is about a month for me working full time.= =A0 That means it would be =0A> ready for prime-time usage in about a year.= =0A> =0A> Not going to happen.=0A> =0A> There are people *much* more talent= ed than I.=A0 Assume one of them could knock =0A> it up in a week.=A0 That = means it's ready for prime-time in 3 months, assuming =0A> they are willing= to put in the nitpicking, uninteresting, tedious and =0A> apparently never= -ending work to make it sufficiently bulletproof.=0A> =0A> Not going to hap= pen.=0A> =0A> Maybe my estimates are way off.=A0 Maybe something can be mad= e to work in two or =0A> three weekends of hacking.=A0 I'd love to see it.= =0A> =0A> Any volunteers?=0A> =0A> =0A> Sorry, but I've just myself really,= really depressed.=A0 Maybe someone can =0A> produce a more optimistic anal= ysis.=0A> =0A> =0A> mi'e kolin.=0A> -- =0A> Dr C.D.Wright, Director of Inno= vation and Engineering=0A> Denbridge Marine Limited, Cammell Lairds Waterfr= ont Park,=0A> Campbeltown Road, Birkenhead, Wirral, Merseyside, CH41 9HP.= =0A> =0A> Tel: +44 (0)151 649 4080=0A> Fax: +44 (0)870 051 8953=0A> Mob: +4= 4 (0)7980 57 22 96=0A> =0A> Denbridge Marine Limited may monitor email traf= fic data and the=0A> content of email for the purposes of security and staf= f training.=0A> =0A> Denbridge Marine Limited.=0A> Registered in England an= d Wales, Company Number 4850477=0A> Registered office: DSG, 43 Castle St, L= iverpool. L2 9TL.=0A