From totus@rogers.com Thu Dec 24 08:50:12 2009 Received: from n7.bullet.re3.yahoo.com ([68.142.237.92]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NNqt5-00007S-Dm for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:50:11 -0800 Received: from [68.142.230.29] by n7.bullet.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Dec 2009 16:50:00 -0000 Received: from [66.196.97.145] by t2.bullet.re2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Dec 2009 16:50:00 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp203.mail.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Dec 2009 16:50:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 489048.96942.bm@omp203.mail.re3.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 56596 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Dec 2009 16:43:20 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1261673000; bh=TWj3R8XQ8C5H1u6BcmarM3s4n2wzauV3Tb1HiXnDoh8=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=En/nzPXbtnNjQbPQQV0wwcTW15jGQdpGMp/2Jb9ZrxyO3CpJUdEj1WT+Mr97bQTR6b7zZ4Dizuqg3m+JhoYsFjaNX0p/CjoiX8FFKSWmMkiwaGjAqPhQ5nu2O3Nc5W2QwuZfgRXnR+7o873WQGmKID3TxlJZPZlSGkgdIeb9Edk= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vMOBQtin8tGlw6tpVdRAC9sZ/qEQvCo77D+Vj/YxN1LqJLtxCTCEjgQi+zZnrs+eL1LzyqHLPmo1ftR0B/18oN1UXGLbcZySNU6sWcjo+wqi9an1yDqwUNJuZu/espymi3ZaveDyQfx2hvTpuPB5dV5Qk4nNj7mFhSARg2mzCbY=; Message-ID: <180870.55473.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: k60EM7wVM1kvMqp20no4XNJgmUEG0ah3uoDKZjYz122qrHKjSzJTwVqa5Uh8fR9vCz6eR4AUSamJf9VBTid_eNXogPR1frIue8hv5I2Ux6H0Uv_GprrfABnY2LAR4qupZPXdn9lMFDv0C.KX_llSjQIresKcfnDj01vecEqBVc8YxELuVL3hWc8tTaG3UOY.l9.7JLHuiQZ2A9pltfD_5W.psZxgEcfFUCGJc_IdAANZOR2JJsuKmNJLY_9Drtku9k8fU8D0.oEPzmFOo2WBUA-- Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:43:19 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/240.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200912231312.13521.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> <82471.28871.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200912231813.32395.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> <908274.37912.qm@web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33381.79.67.21.177.1261604542.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:43:19 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners. To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <33381.79.67.21.177.1261604542.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A> =0A> > I guess we've both said all we can say.=0A> > Time to end this = :)=0A> =0A> Possibly, although the way you say that it sounds like you disa= gree,=0A> but don't want to prolong what you see as an argument.=A0 I certa= inly=0A> hope you *don't* feel that way, because I believe you have a lot t= o=0A> offer, and I believe that without some sort of effort like this the= =0A> language to which I've given quite a lot of time to on and off over=0A= > the last 15 years really will just limp along and eventually die.=0A> =0A= > I want to see your ideas, I want to see what you think beginners=0A> shou= ld be given, I want to see how *you* think and react and will=0A> use facil= ities.=0A> =0A> I want to see how this can be made to work.=A0 It's just th= at I also=0A> know how much work is involved, and I want to find a practica= l and=0A> effective way to make it happen.=0A> =0A> In some ways I hope thi= s is the beginning of the next phase. I can't=0A> make it happen, but maybe= you can.=0A> =0A=0ASorry, Colin. I agree with some of your points in this = particular discourse, =0Aand disagree with others.=A0 I thought that if I r= esponded=A0to each of them, we =0Awould end up going all over the place and= risk losing sight of what this is all about. =0ASo I decided to break the = thread and start afresh.=0A=0AHere are some of my thoughts:=0A=0A1)=A0 We s= hould be clear on what we want to achieve i.e. the objectives.=A0 Is the = =0Aprime objective to recruit new lojbanists, or merely to communicate well= with =0Athose that happen to find us incidently?=A0=0A=0AIf it's the first= , then we need to do a lot more than just provide a beginner's =0Awebsite.= =A0 We need to actively direct potential lojbanists to it.=A0 I came across= =0Alojban accidently.=A0 I have been told by at least some of the powers-t= hat-be that =0Awe shouldn't recruit until the basics of the language are in= place, and that =0Aincludes things like getting the cmavo finalized.=0A=0A= If it's the second, then I wonder if more effort is needed than just making= =0Athe current wiki more beginner-friendly.=0A=0A2) What kind of beginners= do we want to appeal to?=A0 We can actively recruit =0Aanybody who may be = interested, or just stick to techies.=0A=0A3) If a new website is the way t= o go, who will maintain it and keep it 'fresh'? =0AHow will he/she do it.?= =A0 There nothing more demotivating than to see that latest =0Anews with a = 2-year old date.=A0 Our current website is finally looking up-to-date, but = =0Afrankly the Community Activity on the home page is an embarrasment (take= a look!).=A0=0ADoes anybody care?=0A=0A4) If we go with a new website, the= look-and-feel of the home page will determine how =0Amany potential lojban= ists continue on and develop their interest.=A0 Once they are past =0Athe h= ome page, the quality of the tools will be become all important.=A0 Do we h= ave a =0Asomeone with 'design' skills (not just technical skills) to create= a home page that's =0Aexciting, topical, and memorable?=0A=0A5) What resou= rces do we need to implement and keep it going?=A0 In the past year =0AI've= got involved in two exciting projects: a new website (Jim Dabell) and text= -to-speach =0A(Donato).=A0 Both initiators have 'disappeared' without warni= ng.=A0 That's quite demotivating =0Ato anyone else who was involved.=A0 I r= ealize that no-one can realistically commit to a =0Alojban project with 100= % certainty, but I do think that we need volunteers to state =0Apublically = and up front how much time or other resources they intend to commit.=0A=0A= =0A6) Whatever the answers to the above, what is the minimum agreement or s= upport that =0Awe must get from the powers-that-be in order to achieve suce= ss?=0A=0A=0ABy the way, I think we should move this off the beginners list.= =A0 Do you agree?=0A=0Ami'e totus