From bluedolphin359@gmail.com Thu Dec 17 18:15:52 2009 Received: from mail-vw0-f198.google.com ([209.85.212.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NLSNd-0007mi-Sq for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:15:52 -0800 Received: by vws36 with SMTP id 36so827315vws.28 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:15:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=XfoLVfUSSEuvXW7JlHB1dcYYfuqRMOK/3BH7ohcQnII=; b=GSGf1IRaQ7cccp6yoTWrKuhZAw1S7a7aazdiA/aTAVfILD5X4wuDe1yHQePOhzABtb MN5wvF5fUzxUEmpUEMCKt2XwL7lVqACN1j/M+oMCwZrosM6/ut6xvIn++Wfzd4RsfgNT 5uuNZwB3Y8lMzAIOwIP3wwS3HKtYF+gs/+BRk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=hH7ddbH+ckMCNAxOB4E3yHpcT7+nKC/Xpz9U+gpUwVcZbJrrWgrSH6I8MyZmd66xFv NYp86PikZEFNq3kVignN5UBVnVWBhrMIEY6Lw8hW3z806M/uuGP4fLBjJAh/A1y0slP4 Ia7tWVwUUbcC4QTKrdJBCmOC46ApDfHjIPs10= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.127.36 with SMTP id e36mr1787692vcs.4.1261102539442; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:15:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Michael Stoneman Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:15:19 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] A question about gismu definitions To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=005045016d07e3895d047af750d6 --005045016d07e3895d047af750d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Christopher Doty wro= te: > Hi all, > > I'm new to Lojban, but think it's very cool. I'm a PhD student in > linguistics, and it's quite fun to think about how different (and > similar) Lojban is from natural languages. > > As I'm starting to learn gismu, though, I have a couple of question > about definitions. Consider the set of gismu below, along with their > definitions: > > remna - x1 is a human/human being/man (non-specific gender-free > sense); (adjective:) x1 is human > prenu - x1 is a person/people (noun) [not necessarily human]; x1 > displays personality/a persona > remsmi - r1 is humanoid/man-like in quality r2 > remsmismani - x1 is an ape of species x2. > ninmu - x1 is a woman/women; x1 is a female humanoid person [not > necessarily adult] > nanmu - x1 is a man/men; x1 is a male humanoid person [not necessarily > adult] > > My first question is, essentially, this: what are criteria for using > these various forms? Is remsmi not to be used with human beings, but > only non-human things which have some resemblance to human beings? > (And what is "man" doing in there? Is that the "non-gender specific" > man as in remna?) When can you use prenu with non-humans? When > they're sentient aliens or computers? Can you use this for apes as > well, even though a separate set of terms exists for apes? > > I suppose that my issue with this is that I'm not clear how we're > defining 'person/people' and 'humanoid' here. Does personhood imply > sentience? Or only that something is alive? Or is something like > ninmu only used with things which are demonstrably both physically and > mentally similar to human beings? > > Perhaps I'm overthinking this a bit in an effort to be truly > "logical." It seems like including these bits in the definition are > intended to cover things like characters/computer game avatars/etc., > as well as possibly future non-human intelligences, but it seems a bit > messy at the moment (perhaps because all such non-human entities are > currently fictional/hypothetical). > > Relatedly, I'm wondering about the definitions of some gismu, like > dunda below, that list multiple English words in the definition. > > dunda - x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to > recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange]. > > Am I correct in assuming that this is an effort to provide a sense of > the concepts that the gismu covers, and not simply a list of English > equivalents? That is, can we use dunda in ANY place where a transfer > of an object takes place without recompense (e.g., bequeath, transmit > (as knowledge across generations), will, etc.), or ONLY in cases where > English specifically uses "donate" or "give?" > > Thanks in advance! I'm sure y'all'll be got lots more of these > esoteric types of questions from me in the future :p > > Chris > > > > --=20 There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who understand binary numbers and those who don't. - On the eighth day God created leap years. - I'll stop, in case a rampaging mob of anti-Disney protesters hears and murders me in my sleep. - I seem to have lost my pants - Have a seat upon a cloud and make yourself at home/ You are now inside a dream, inside a book, inside a poem. - Eli, Nate, Molly, Hojung, Eve, Sarah, and Michael participated in the Battl= e of the Agora on September 18, 2008 in Fitchburg, WI. Also included were man= y chunks of cheese and muffin pieces. - (\ /) (-.-) (=C2=B0=C2=B0)* Jenny is a ninja nerdy bunny girl! - Why do I always have to play Doctor Phil=E2=80=BD - Eve: i wasnt there for the inside joke but i told me about it - "There's people to do and places to see" - I want more - WWSNPVD? - Hey Michael, i talked to your daughter at recess today - "Someone could call the elevator" "Elevator!" - An infinite number of mathematicians walk into a bar=E2=80=A6 - Nate: what did the majority of colonists do? me: die - Eve and I are dream buddies! xD - Claire: Yo momma so dumb she confused the Pythagorean theorem with the SAS congruence postulate! - Indentured servitudity! - Eve (describing her dream): but we sit there for like a day me: a day? Eve: well, there were couches - Jenny: "why do owls always get invited to bird parties?" me: why? Jenny: idk. i'll tell u when i finish my popcicle - Memorial to EAGLE Class of '09 --005045016d07e3895d047af750d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:10 = PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

I'm new to Lojban, but think it's very cool. =C2=A0I'm a PhD st= udent in
linguistics, and it's quite fun to think about how different (and
similar) Lojban is from natural languages.

As I'm starting to learn gismu, though, I have a couple of question
about definitions. =C2=A0Consider the set of gismu below, along with their<= br> definitions:

remna - x1 is a human/human being/man (non-specific gender-free
sense); (adjective:) x1 is human
prenu - x1 is a person/people (noun) [not necessarily human]; x1
displays personality/a persona
remsmi - r1 is humanoid/man-like in quality r2
remsmismani - x1 is an ape of species x2.
ninmu - x1 is a woman/women; x1 is a female humanoid person [not
necessarily adult]
nanmu - =C2=A0x1 is a man/men; x1 is a male humanoid person [not necessaril= y adult]

My first question is, essentially, this: what are criteria for using
these various forms? =C2=A0Is remsmi not to be used with human beings, but<= br> only non-human things which have some resemblance to human beings?
(And what is "man" doing in there? Is that the "non-gender s= pecific"
man as in remna?) When can you use prenu with non-humans? =C2=A0When
they're sentient aliens or computers? =C2=A0Can you use this for apes a= s
well, even though a separate set of terms exists for apes?

I suppose that my issue with this is that I'm not clear how we're defining 'person/people' and 'humanoid' here. =C2=A0Does pe= rsonhood imply
sentience? Or only that something is alive? =C2=A0Or is something like
ninmu only used with things which are demonstrably both physically and
mentally similar to human beings?

Perhaps I'm overthinking this a bit in an effort to be truly
"logical." =C2=A0It seems like including these bits in the defini= tion are
intended to cover things like characters/computer game avatars/etc.,
as well as possibly future non-human intelligences, but it seems a bit
messy at the moment (perhaps because all such non-human entities are
currently fictional/hypothetical).

Relatedly, I'm wondering about the definitions of some gismu, like
dunda below, that list multiple English words in the definition.

dunda - x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to
recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange].

Am I correct in assuming that this is an effort to provide a sense of
the concepts that the gismu covers, and not simply a list of English
equivalents? That is, can we use dunda in ANY place where a transfer
of an object takes place without recompense (e.g., bequeath, transmit
(as knowledge across generations), will, etc.), or ONLY in cases where
English specifically uses "donate" or "give?"

Thanks in advance! I'm sure y'all'll be got lots more of these<= br> esoteric types of questions from me in the future :p

Chris






--
There are 10 kinds of p= eople in this world: Those who understand binary numbers and those who don&= #39;t.
-
On the eighth day God created leap years.
-
I'll s= top, in case a rampaging mob of anti-Disney protesters hears and murders me= in my sleep.
-
I seem to have lost my pants
-
Have a seat upon a cloud and make= yourself at home/ You are now inside a dream, inside a book, inside a poem= .
-
Eli, Nate, Molly, Hojung, Eve, Sarah, and Michael participated in= the Battle of the Agora on September 18, 2008 in Fitchburg, WI. Also inclu= ded were many chunks of cheese and muffin pieces.
-
(\ /)
(-.-)
(=C2=B0=C2=B0)*
Jenny is a ninja nerdy bunny girl= !
-
Why do I always have to play Doctor Phil=E2=80=BD
-
Eve: = =C2=A0i wasnt there for the inside joke but i told me about it
-
&quo= t;There's people to do and places to see"
-
I want more
-
WWSNPVD?
-
Hey Michael, i talked to your dau= ghter at recess today
-
"Someone could call the elevator""Elevator!"
-
An infinite number of mathematicians walk i= nto a bar=E2=80=A6
-
Nate: =C2=A0what did the majority of colonists do?
me: =C2=A0die-
Eve and I are dream buddies! xD
-
Claire: Yo momma so dumb she = confused the Pythagorean theorem with the SAS congruence postulate!
-Indentured servitudity!
-
Eve (describing her dream): =C2=A0but we sit there for like a day
m= e: =C2=A0a day?
Eve: =C2=A0well, there were couches
-
Jenny: =C2= =A0"why do owls always get invited to bird parties?"
me: =C2= =A0why?
Jenny: =C2=A0idk. i'll tell u when i finish my popcicle
-
Memorial to EAGLE Class of '09
--005045016d07e3895d047af750d6--