From get.oren@gmail.com Wed Jan 27 20:55:11 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f47.google.com ([209.85.160.47]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NaMPJ-0000y8-OP for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:55:10 -0800 Received: by pwj10 with SMTP id 10so240371pwj.26 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:54:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=+V55q9ko762teCJIKJ61vDyIAIAqJX7KAlfOCe1Dd/Q=; b=PfCYtorKYywy126nGLxviB+73Vn5clQfk8vVh/OPUAweAFmy4VNIqfk9GoVjbRiG/v 1AH4oNw2xlP+jNJv11F2RnjsWMqaqURW8FX4h7oRdCDeQXEBgNGBeRwVz/JlANFddFC+ kAoxtFDM6YUXpFtvuaUtBSmXzQ5DaO6+vwKTg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ZvS15x/l75QmWp8orG29AzNW/D+lEAuSxPKLwRP55UdwOz1vkMwyxLMVeYwGM2INnn /wpib6478cnM7yvHbeypX4FbrXds4jpRRNvpiB4NksSL6HT3qaHd8frOWFgJ1rlaDdZm T/0wViFdoLIVbcfglLVsNrxPMy0+qGWSM7p1M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.117.25 with SMTP id p25mr942062wfc.301.1264654499185; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:54:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <96f789a61001272039p7eaf2e7evab5e8c2bf62bda3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <7177e42e1001271849o782ec540td05bdd005d247b09@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41001271924i1a48cefq8cf87704a7abc24c@mail.gmail.com> <27513e551001272000n5040fe9xb88513608b33ab35@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61001272038v52367eb7x6afa296912dc660e@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61001272039p7eaf2e7evab5e8c2bf62bda3b@mail.gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:54:39 +0800 Message-ID: <27513e551001272054v66af5795x5dc09c2a02332a93@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: "Why should I believe that?" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e0a7f4300473047e325273 --001636e0a7f4300473047e325273 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ah yes. conversion is much more efficient; and then in context, you could also leave out the la'edi'u, right? { ma ve jinvi } oh, haha, or just use the attitudinal... { .iacu'i } On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:39, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:38 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Oren wrote: > >> could I rearrange the sumti and say... > >> { fe la'edu'i jinvi fo ma } > >> ...to mean "why believe that?" (without specifying me or you or whoever) > > > > You certainly can, but since the emphasis on the question is the > > reason for belief, it's probably better to say "ma ve jinvi fe > > la'edi'u" > > Actually, no fe. Really presumably you have just stated a fact. > > > > > >> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:24, Sam Chapin > wrote: > >>> > >>> For a start there's {jinvi}, "opine": x1 holds opinion x2 (du'u) about > >>> subject x3 for reason x4. > >>> > >>> > http://www.lojban.org/cgi-bin/dict.pl?Form=dict.pl1&Query=jinvi&Strategy=*&Database=*&submit=Submit+query > >>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 9:49 PM, DataPacRat > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> "Why should I believe that?" is a fairly simple phrase, and the > >>>> cornerstone of the scientific method and skeptical movement... and I'm > >>>> having a bit of a time figuring out the Lojban version. The most > >>>> relevant lujvo or gismu I can find dealing with belief is krici, which > >>>> is belief /without/ evidence or proof, the exact opposite of the sort > >>>> of belief I want to deal with. Another way to say the same idea in > >>>> English is "What evidence supports that [assertion]?", but I'm having > >>>> trouble figuring out the different lujvo; would > >>>> > >>>> ma xu'acmu fi ta > >>>> > >>>> translate to something like "What evidence is the basis for asserting > >>>> that?" > >>>> > >>>> Or should I be trying to figure out "velji'i datni" or "sidydatni" > >>>> mentioned in the entry for datni? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for your time, > >>>> -- > >>>> DataPacRat > >>>> li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su'i pa du li no .i je'a melbi! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > --001636e0a7f4300473047e325273 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ah yes. conversion is much more efficient; and then in con= text, you could also leave out the la'edi'u, right?

<= div>{ ma ve jinvi }

oh, haha, or just use the atti= tudinal...

{ .iacu'i }=A0

On= Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:39, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wr= ote:
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1= 1:38 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> = wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
>> could I rearrange the sumti and say...
>> { fe la'edu'i jinvi fo ma }
>> ...to mean "why believe that?" (without specifying me or= you or whoever)
>
> =A0You certainly can, but since the emphasis on the question is the > reason for belief, it's probably better to say "ma ve jinvi f= e
> la'edi'u"

=A0Actually, no fe. =A0Really =A0presumably you have just stated a f= act.


>
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:24, Sam Chapin <not.here.now@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> For a start there's {jinvi}, "opine": x1 holds o= pinion x2 (du'u) about
>>> subject x3 for reason x4.
>>>
>>> http://www.lojban.org/cgi-bin/dict.pl?Form=3Ddict.= pl1&Query=3Djinvi&Strategy=3D*&Database=3D*&submit=3DSubmit= +query
>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 9:49 PM, DataPacRat <datapacrat@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Why should I believe that?" is a fairly simple = phrase, and the
>>>> cornerstone of the scientific method and skeptical movemen= t... and I'm
>>>> having a bit of a time figuring out the Lojban version. Th= e most
>>>> relevant lujvo or gismu I can find dealing with belief is = krici, which
>>>> is belief /without/ evidence or proof, the exact opposite = of the sort
>>>> of belief I want to deal with. Another way to say the same= idea in
>>>> English is "What evidence supports that [assertion]?&= quot;, but I'm having
>>>> trouble figuring out the different lujvo; would
>>>>
>>>> ma xu'acmu fi ta
>>>>
>>>> translate to something like "What evidence is the bas= is for asserting
>>>> that?"
>>>>
>>>> Or should I be trying to figure out "velji'i datn= i" or "sidydatni"
>>>> mentioned in the entry for datni?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your time,
>>>> --
>>>> DataPacRat
>>>> li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su= 'i pa du li no .i je'a melbi!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>




--001636e0a7f4300473047e325273--