From jjllambias@gmail.com Fri Jan 29 10:01:39 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f215.google.com ([209.85.218.215]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nav9t-00027w-DH for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:01:38 -0800 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so1203039bwz.26 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:01:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=WZAw9Wba1SDoRK7Gk0N9AsXd4Z3NsCygM/mnpUBCc84=; b=dEgfES0VkTfpO5dhOE4jmM9rsyxHzlaLQHPAhBtuksMHDR93jnv03EwZyD6uNPB6/x EtJ+wu8Q6/7bURVuHzoDh64D7ngUX0XVHznXK2TSxqLyvGkHqs0hYuakYiIUH/d5GfwF EBqHQjXJ5j40TsHmLjvzA12yYaFtQrTSiR9XY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=rPD+8hfrUhLSr8YANGnTqmQdi9moXE9IU6hn807/v53JcA1yUaaTA0suu9j9KK6Mx6 rYIPKTJkYAGHS2dkAZh8cG9TuATdL8Q6AomIy2K82I/lp+3pEvp62bJ2eUY5vNxJILuX JW2XZSad+l5o3pMjWX1gIXHFu8bhTdjFuiTW4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.11.19 with SMTP id r19mr694752bkr.205.1264788081800; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:01:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <12d58c161001281810t7bea69c3o7db8963471745723@mail.gmail.com> References: <7177e42e1001271849o782ec540td05bdd005d247b09@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561001280503u5fcaeca8ue13039a5f6ae5b2b@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c161001281807p7132ea49r8258d1dbf920bcd1@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c161001281810t7bea69c3o7db8963471745723@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:01:21 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561001291001y41be8afcscfde3d6696e508d7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: "Why should I believe that?" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:10 PM, komfo,amonan wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:07 PM, komfo,amonan wrote: >> >> There is a discrepancy between the definitions of {krici} in jbovlaste & >> the gismu wordlist. In the latter, it specifically states "without >> evidence/proof". Here's the link < >> http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu.txt >. Does anyone know >> whether that is out of date and/or whether jbovlaste is, when in doubt, the >> higher authority? I vaguely remember that this was discussed on the list before, which may have resulted in the decision for the change in wording, but I don't know how to search the archives for it. I did find this however (which is much older): http://www.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9110/msg00064.html The key words there are: "Belief is something you can have without any evidence or justrification." CAN, not MUST. Evidence or justification may or may not be present, krici concerns belief, not whatever led to it. And that's how it should be, because we can't lack a word in Lojban for such a basic concept as belief. If lack of evidence was a must for belief, then "I can't believe what I'm seeing" would always be literally true in Lojban, "of course you can't believe it, how could you, since the evidence is right in front of your eyes". As for what the higher autority is, I would say that it's neither gismu.txt nor jbovlaste, but common sense. :) > Either way, your point stands, because it's merely a comment; nonetheless > the discrepancy surprised me, & indicates the possibility of other, more > salient discrepancies. mu'o mi'e komfn I think there have been a few (very few) other minor changes, but I don't know if they are documented anywhere. It's a pity that jbovlaste doesn't show a history of edits. mu'o mi'e xorxes