From jjllambias@gmail.com Thu Feb 25 18:04:48 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NkpZL-0005Xh-FG for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:04:48 -0800 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so5268799bwz.26 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:04:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=s/WEo1EZIEm8TPMvC8vD80x+387GyTbJKHddSWeA1uc=; b=sQ62/Fsz1AvoUUw/jcNrYyl+M9C3oFhaTY9HQKd9ew9haVObNSkBRzAOtpdovu9sn5 EKf4Fx1rN9NO3pz0of5JfSmSf+r56euBWsHQarvg7i/Sud5E0CVC+glj5DSyoRaPi0aq +vk3G29c4ZH5DX0DRxpxHOZi2YSBPJeiixync= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=ClBN3zciymPdXY8WNjjfrXkBfCOTkV10Mf9AhXAOPyTE0pUo227RgKAEmP2d32OER6 z20WT0O08Wz8oLbw1ndEElULYQHkpAQMo8NsVIu1EwnKcKp3Gr2qhDuGvCmxeCN83c84 PQFkackCVOzOKf82+pMmO0zn3/XTzYyovpNeI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.174.201 with SMTP id u9mr199389bkz.204.1267149876497; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:04:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1a3d02c41002251734h18fc88e0ue9d3aec6734b0538@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f1080831002250758rb17bd2dk664e035452c298e4@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002250954p6d57ef87w3cde7fd92a9fe7d9@mail.gmail.com> <1f1080831002251318p78bab1dbha716f66a082c0daf@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301002251328o11d2223r12bf275e35e71955@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251336o12bddef4re5cec4b5ac32893f@mail.gmail.com> <20100225215933.GA14097@sdf.lonestar.org> <925d17561002251427h15040eb6p7256255a4d770b3c@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41002251734h18fc88e0ue9d3aec6734b0538@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:04:36 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561002251804t3bfb7247u95f265f213a09215@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Tenses in abstractions From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:34 PM, Sam Chapin wrote: > Minimiscience's view is the one described in chapter 10 of the online > draft reference grammar. Is this other reimagining of ZI and VA widely > used? I use it a lot, and I have seen others use it. I think it is used more than the CLL version, except perhaps for "vi", which is sometimes used as if it meant "bu'u". > It breaks the { broda} == { ku broda} identity that > holds for everything else. How so? That identity holds for both versions. > Don't termsets solve the problem of asking for a magnitude? e.g. > {PU/FAhA nu'i da lu'a ma nu'u} That would have to be {nu'i PU/FAhA da la'u ma nu'u}, otherwise you get {PU/FAhA ku nu'i da la'u ma nu'u} with "da" filling a regular sumti slot. The CLL has a couple of errors where it explains that, notice it should be "la'u", not "lu'a", and a tag cannot be used to tag a whole termset. But termsets have a different function, all they really indicate is that the two terms belong in the same bridi, not that they go together in any other sense. > N.B.: Before looking it up, I would have guessed you could ask > {PU/FAhA cu'e broda} and hope for a response from ZI/VI, but the > refgram says that ("The only way to combine {cu'e} with other tense > cmavo is through logical connection"). Why? What would it break to > allow cu'e in a compound tense? Nothing, really. That's part of the reson for the tag proposal: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Internal+grammar+of+tags Still, there would be no reason to expect that the response to "PU/FAhA cu'e" should come from ZI/VA, it could come from any other tag selma'o, like ZAhO, KAhE, etc. "cu'e" is not a very useful question, the answers can be too disparate to really know what someone is asking with it. A better way to ask for a displacement magnitude (with my system) is with "pu za ma", "how long ago?", "va ma", "how far away?" mu'o mi'e xorxes