From blindbravado@gmail.com Mon Mar 15 18:46:09 2010 Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.92.149]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NrLr7-0007rz-Jw for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:46:08 -0700 Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 14so845533qwa.58 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:45:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=BJArmE3UdmosuKw5bM9IF7L/k7S1WCHH7lcZ/yPYUpY=; b=Cd325CMk20xqg6X7L/+0DkVfZTh7TF5X4YhrCvBiIQ0AVh8lzrTQct0kRtIERrLkqQ 37fWV+stEjhvs4gdb2WI8qbAN784WDbodsDgpleSLcHuGRonzVHdWD9FR5jBxzETeI59 ILjrC7j+MP+A9pb4Z6P2P244KobgLR471iiGA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=BQEMkkYfTaYsnTPryFpAoOOtDP+t0isDqY0CXw7hPytUrG1skwgwAUVS/GfrMEw/9b 3LZjFHXrrJDH0G/TLTdfNeK+4wFk4KEno7fH+o8FPhU1DwuaJGNhDGjqxgkzZlYYL5Lg cqnpeBrNuxKxjwNNkCKeZD4vS9hvj/xRpx6aQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.16.200 with SMTP id p8mr695566qaa.176.1268703957519; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:45:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17561003151718y716cdc5cn4464653606e722f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4de8c3931003130452v3473ee1ei70da65f022ac2b1b@mail.gmail.com> <1f1080831003150959g65a0df85ve65508bc16cbdb0f@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003151014p415766a4n310d69d20b72bac7@mail.gmail.com> <16d9defd1003151126j12806949q6f3b676b05ed35ac@mail.gmail.com> <16d9defd1003151137mba5fc38lba8b846c6faac933@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003151223y40cbd6a8s8c0a5041d89ffcb0@mail.gmail.com> <1f1080831003151435u2d8df14eo26bb0a4f60a33c2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003151529l45aae38aiac525e7e832e0db3@mail.gmail.com> <1f1080831003151545n6b3a1bd4x34eebbdaaebaa786@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003151718y716cdc5cn4464653606e722f0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:45:57 -0400 Message-ID: <1f1080831003151845u6a7a5d87x97ed40dd5d2dbf5f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: How versatile is "nu"? From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000feaf14975b690510481e12822 --000feaf14975b690510481e12822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suppose that makes sense. I also suppose that what I should've said would be "I know what the truth value of {bridi} is", which is in and of itself a= n indirect question...gah. Would really be nice IMO to come up with some sort of mechanism to ascend beyond indirect questions altogether, but I don't think I'm anywhere near metalinguistic enough to come up with one. I wonder if there are any natural languages that do something completely different from them... mu'omi'e .latros. 2010/3/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > I don't know, I somehow see {mi djuno lo jei lo broda cu brode}* as > > considerably easier to understand than {mi djuno lo du'u xukau lo broda > cu > > brode}. > > > > *I think I can say this in this way, though I might be wrong, since > > {djuno}'s x2 is labeled as a du'u in my dictionary... > > As long as "jei" =3D "du'u xu kau", there is no problem. > But if "jei" =3D "se jetlai be lo du'u", then you would be saying that > you know TRUE (or that you know FALSE), which makes no sense. > > If you put it in the context of different questions: > > ma cmene do > "What is your name?" > > mi djuno lo du'u ma kau cmene do > "I know what your name is." > > do xabju ma > "Where do you live?" > > mi djuno lo du'u do xabju ma kau > "I know where you live." > > ti mo > "What is this?" > > mi djuno lo du'u ti mo kau > "I know what this is." > > xo plise cu se lanka ti > "How many apples are there in this basket?" > > mi djuno lo du'u xo kau plise cu se lanka ti > "I know how many apples there are in this basket." > > xu do tatpi > "Are you tired?" > > mi djuno lo du'u xu kau do tatpi > "I know whether you are tired." > > Replacing the last one with "mi djuno lo jei do tatpi" seems just > inconsistent. Why would the direct "xu" question have its own short > form for the indirect case, while all other questions don't have a > short form? I prefer to treat all questions consistently. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > --000feaf14975b690510481e12822 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suppose that makes sense. I also suppose that what I should've said w= ould be "I know what the truth value of {bridi} is", which is in = and of itself an indirect question...gah. Would really be nice IMO to come = up with some sort of mechanism to ascend beyond indirect questions altogeth= er, but I don't think I'm anywhere near metalinguistic enough to co= me up with one. I wonder if there are any natural languages that do somethi= ng completely different from them...

mu'omi'e .latros.

2010/3/15 J= orge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't know, I somehow see {mi djuno lo jei lo broda cu brode}*= =A0 as
> considerably easier to understand than {mi djuno lo du'u xukau lo = broda cu
> brode}.
>
> *I think I can say this in this way, though I = might be wrong, since
> {djuno}'s x2 is labeled as a du'u in my dictionary...

As long as "jei" =3D "du'u xu kau", there is = no problem.
But if "jei" =3D "se jetlai be lo du'u", then you w= ould be saying that
you know TRUE (or that you know FALSE), which makes no sense.

If you put it in the context of different questions:

=A0ma cmene do
=A0"What is your name?"

=A0mi djuno lo du'u ma kau cmene do
=A0"I know what your name is."

=A0do xabju ma
=A0"Where do you live?"

=A0mi djuno lo du'u do xabju ma kau
=A0"I know where you live."

=A0ti mo
=A0"What is this?"

=A0mi djuno lo du'u ti mo kau
=A0"I know what this is."

=A0 xo plise cu se lanka ti
=A0 "How many apples are there in this basket?"

=A0 mi djuno lo du'u xo kau plise cu se lanka ti
=A0 "I know how many apples there are in this basket."

=A0 =A0xu do tatpi
=A0 =A0"Are you tired?"

=A0 =A0mi djuno lo du'u xu kau do tatpi
=A0 =A0"I know whether you are tired."

Replacing the last one with "mi djuno lo jei do tatpi" seems just=
inconsistent. Why would the direct "xu" question have its own sho= rt
form for the indirect case, while all other questions don't have a
short form? I prefer to treat all questions consistently.

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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