From lukeabergen@gmail.com Mon Mar 15 20:36:41 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com ([209.85.212.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NrNa8-0001BV-46 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:36:40 -0700 Received: by vws7 with SMTP id 7so1111967vws.40 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:36:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=mMicwXpJqf46ql6svwoBx5vcJm0go4v9Y1bMIDqnF5I=; b=lM1lMTWM3EjQKBpxckkzIarIaetlQt1i+SIRx9ZEK24dNTlV6pSaV2y0TY/TqJBaT4 DqX1LmZTOseiP102MCxKEX02bfzcs/UW4YT5181WYbFG6bUCsgs9woAcUQXCIsO70h9x OlNpB8xmVVsxExyTNe88Ec1/QVvCgKtgcguEs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=DT3F9ECnv1+wQUuzxm2n6jkR1vl86iDkiENDTFzUou6qR53f2axR1PC9E5EG752dAN pUZ9aTMXYKO6h0Y7IYZMQ6D/3pXlokKtKxZ8Q2IPU6tGrlXIazTJG2ltEV7BqkUc2nC7 qewYgOGpeb+b8mDchRVONbamz6aPxCOerf8wA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.128.9 with SMTP id i9mr2187987vcs.115.1268710589757; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:36:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17561003152025w7747ab1aj7e127feee1d94cd5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4de8c3931003130452v3473ee1ei70da65f022ac2b1b@mail.gmail.com> <16d9defd1003151126j12806949q6f3b676b05ed35ac@mail.gmail.com> <16d9defd1003151137mba5fc38lba8b846c6faac933@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003151223y40cbd6a8s8c0a5041d89ffcb0@mail.gmail.com> <1f1080831003151435u2d8df14eo26bb0a4f60a33c2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003151529l45aae38aiac525e7e832e0db3@mail.gmail.com> <1f1080831003151545n6b3a1bd4x34eebbdaaebaa786@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003151718y716cdc5cn4464653606e722f0@mail.gmail.com> <1f1080831003151845u6a7a5d87x97ed40dd5d2dbf5f@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003152025w7747ab1aj7e127feee1d94cd5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:36:29 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9301003152036u68112bb1o194e1ea3ceedb1c2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: How versatile is "nu"? From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e1f23d0679680481e2b4e9 --001636e1f23d0679680481e2b4e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This whole topic reminds me of e-prime. I haven't thought about that project in a while. Maybe you will find it interesting, Ian, in your quest for a language with no indirect questions :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime 2010/3/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > I suppose that makes sense. I also suppose that what I should've said > would > > be "I know what the truth value of {bridi} is", which is in and of itse= lf > an > > indirect question...gah. > > Right, in that case you could use the "truth value" meaning of "jei", as > in: > > mi djuno lo du'u makau jei > > but it's just more verbiage added to the simpler "xukau" form. And to > be consistent, the direct question to use should be: > > ma jei > > instead of the simpler: > > xu > > > Would really be nice IMO to come up with some sort > > of mechanism to ascend beyond indirect questions altogether, but I don'= t > > think I'm anywhere near metalinguistic enough to come up with one. I > wonder > > if there are any natural languages that do something completely differe= nt > > from them... > > Well, in English you can avoid them most of the time. You can say "I > know your name" instead of "I know what your name is", or "I know the > number of apples in the basket" instead of "I know how many apples > there are in the basket", and I guess "I know if you are tired" is the > way to avoid the "whether" indirect question.. But that doeasn't > really work in Lojban because the object of "djuno" has to be a > proposition. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > --001636e1f23d0679680481e2b4e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This whole topic reminds me of e-prime. =A0I haven't thought about that= project in a while. =A0Maybe you will find it interesting,=A0Ian, in your quest for a language with= no indirect questions :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime

2010/3/15 Jorge Llamb=EDa= s <jjllambias@= gmail.com>
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote: > I suppose that makes sense. I also suppose that what I should've s= aid would
> be "I know what the truth value of {bridi} is", which is in = and of itself an
> indirect question...gah.

Right, in that case you could use the "truth value" meaning= of "jei", as in:

=A0 mi djuno lo du'u makau jei <bridi>

but it's just more verbiage added to the simpler "xukau" form= . And to
be consistent, the direct question to use should be:

=A0 ma jei <bridi>

instead of the simpler:

=A0 xu <bridi>

> Would really be nice IMO to come up with some sort
> of mechanism to ascend beyond indirect questions altogether, but I don= 't
> think I'm anywhere near metalinguistic enough to come up with one.= I wonder
> if there are any natural languages that do something completely differ= ent
> from them...

Well, in English you can avoid them most of the time. You can say &qu= ot;I
know your name" instead of "I know what your name is", or &q= uot;I know the
number of apples in the basket" instead of "I know how many apple= s
there are in the basket", and I guess "I know if you are tired&qu= ot; is the
way to avoid the "whether" indirect question.. But that doeasn= 9;t
really work in Lojban because the object of "djuno" has to be a proposition.

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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