From mturniansky@gmail.com Tue Mar 02 08:22:20 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com ([209.85.160.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NmUrO-0006X2-Dm for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:22:19 -0800 Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2so208833pwi.40 for ; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:22:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=dW+fWwVNVn2+9MT+uHYEka4qSLNoQBC8NUwLtTgFWvs=; b=pAZY2dkweVEkEeBXLVigDZqmF7ypU23A5BXXnKBGpWbIqHInK2KDqTseVb+7nsgbBi yvTnNDyMpYWKGQ5JCYanLBZAOrV6/FzzNgLHu6xZPwJ/J4xD3wWi44VMWs4Md9SB3Y5U NGhThXWPZohH/A4QBihbJMbwxtvcgajl3k2f8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=I6MqjlX49C6RLsbiTV++dIAnTM2HtYVCOXO2bMhBYHi4CEZhgXffCNEQQPG/T7Qj0c Vc+1LVst6pXjCRC6L+bKXXnUMoGzByKRlQG5QlrTIjWEf0H/uLOuLkdocAlhZjm1B8Zk 7M+t4wb5Xmyp1pBAJrcqiKIfs77nWC6NApSDo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.122.42 with SMTP id u42mr802500wfc.108.1267546928237; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:22:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17561002272030k3ae82265l279601d87d4a767c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f1080831002250758rb17bd2dk664e035452c298e4@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251336o12bddef4re5cec4b5ac32893f@mail.gmail.com> <20100225215933.GA14097@sdf.lonestar.org> <925d17561002251427h15040eb6p7256255a4d770b3c@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41002251734h18fc88e0ue9d3aec6734b0538@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251804t3bfb7247u95f265f213a09215@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41002251830u1165ddd1ve7992c512894603@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251844g4bdc9f18kdfc75121dcff527d@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301002271924s287eaaa1xa42d34d3997bd82e@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002272030k3ae82265l279601d87d4a767c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:22:07 -0500 Message-ID: <96f789a61003020822u78536fb9id899f3d0f1d632f1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Tenses in abstractions From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e1f81c64ccc30480d3c4d2 --001636e1f81c64ccc30480d3c4d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/2/27 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Ok, so, what you're describing, xorxes, is something different from the > CLL > > I think. I thought I always understood VA/ZI as sumtcita but I guess > not. > > The CLL version I understand to mean that {mi citka lo plise za lo nu = mi > > sipna} means "I eat the apple a medium time distance from the event of = me > > sleeping". Could you explain what {mi citka lo plise za lo nu mi sipna= } > > means under your understanding of VA/ZI sumtcita, xorxes? > > "I eat the apple an event of me sleeping ago", or "I eat the apple an > event of me sleeping from now". You wouldn't normally use a ZI without > a PU though, because the difference between "ago" and "hence" is > pretty drastic. The case of VA is a bit different because in space the > direction sometimes can be irrelevant. > > > Thanks. > > P.S. It's a little disconcerting that I've been learning lojban for ov= er > a > > year now and have been using VA/ZI sumtcita like the CLL describes them > > without ever hearing of another way to use them. > > Do you use them or see them used like that very often? In the CLL > sense they don't seem to have a lot of use (as sumtcita). As I said, > the only one I really see used as sumtcita in the CLL sense is "vi", > but even then mostly with the sense of "bu'u". Even the example that > started this: > > I do indeed use them as sumtcita to mean "time/distance away from x". (se= e for example, Esther, Chapter 9: .i ca le paremoi be lo'i masti be'o noi masti co me la .aDAR. ku'o ca lo pacimoi be lo'i djedi pe ra zi lo nu le selsku be le nolraitru be'o .e le flalu be fu ny. cu jai selgau kei ca le detri be lo nu platu fa lo bradi be lei bropre fi lo nu jitro by. cu dutybi'o fa py. ) I also use ZEhA x in the sense of "how much of a the duration of x". (example Esther chapte 2 -- .i ca lo tcika be tu'a le citni'u goi ko'a be'o no'u lo nu le citni'u cu klama le nolraitru po'u la .axacyveROC. ba lo nu co'e ko'a pu'e lo flalu be fi le ninmu ze'e lo masti be li pare ki'u lo nu mulno fa lo temci co nu likpu'i pe ny. ze'e lo masti be li xa bei sepi'o loi grasu be loi ciblrmoru be'o be'o kuce'o lo masti be li xa bei sepi'o loi tsapi .e loi melselpanci pe le ninmu keikeikei taiku l= e citni'u cu klama le nolraitru) --gejyspa --001636e1f81c64ccc30480d3c4d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2010/2/27 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, so, what you're describing, xorxes, is something different fro= m the CLL
> I think. =C2=A0I thought I always understood VA/ZI as sumtcita but I g= uess not.
> =C2=A0The CLL version I understand to mean that {mi citka lo plise za = lo nu mi
> sipna} means "I eat the apple a medium time distance from the eve= nt of me
> sleeping". =C2=A0Could you explain what {mi citka lo plise za lo = nu mi sipna}
> means under your understanding of VA/ZI sumtcita, xorxes?

"I eat the apple an event of me sleeping ago", or =C2=A0&qu= ot;I eat the apple an
event of me sleeping from now". You wouldn't normally use a ZI wit= hout
a PU though, because the difference between "ago" and "hence= " is
pretty drastic. The case of VA is a bit different because in space the
direction sometimes can be irrelevant.

> Thanks.
> P.S. =C2=A0It's a little disconcerting that I've been learning= lojban for over a
> year now and have been using VA/ZI sumtcita like the CLL describes the= m
> without ever hearing of another way to use them.

Do you use them or see them used like that very often? In the CLL
sense they don't seem to have a lot of use (as sumtcita). As I said, the only one I really see used as sumtcita in the CLL sense is "vi&quo= t;,
but even then mostly with the sense of "bu'u". Even the examp= le that
started this:


=C2=A0 I do indeed use them as s= umtcita to mean "time/distance away from x". (see for example, Es= ther, Chapter 9: .i ca le paremoi be lo'i masti be'o noi masti co m= e la .aDAR. ku'o ca lo pacimoi be lo'i djedi pe ra zi lo nu le selsku be le nolraitru be= 9;o .e le flalu be fu ny. cu jai selgau kei ca le detri be lo nu platu fa lo bradi be lei bropre fi lo nu jitro by. cu dutybi'o fa py. ) I also u= se ZEhA x in the sense of "how much of a the duration of x". (exa= mple Esther chapte 2 -- .i ca lo tcika be tu'a le citni'u goi ko= 9;a be'o no'u lo nu le citni'u cu klama le nolraitru po'u la .axacyveROC. ba lo nu co'e ko'a p= u'e lo flalu be fi le ninmu ze'e lo masti be li pare ki'u lo nu mulno fa l= o temci co nu likpu'i pe ny. ze'e lo masti be li xa bei sepi'o lo= i grasu be loi ciblrmoru be'o be'o kuce'o lo masti be li xa bei sepi= 9;o loi tsapi .e loi melselpanci pe le ninmu keikeikei taiku le citni'u cu klama le nolraitru)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --gejyspa

=C2=A0
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