From jjllambias@gmail.com Tue Mar 02 14:38:47 2010 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nmajj-0001gh-HZ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:38:46 -0800 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so749996bwz.26 for ; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:38:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kcEEVAYy6LRAQPI54GGdJ/Y19AC+GXWKc8eXnQ3ZvYA=; b=V7uQCN7k+9l6pLFV5HPWkb+I3WH0dThy6RqoKmaGS7UXzvsEhHcjE6squBObbeL2Ar 8IgkbOCorf9YDHH8916xFX/rfsfz8D8FHfmr6brdx1n7V3oAfY4/3IBtHvCxpGqPvQKe KA7bx2jBb8v8+y0fNXCzx5pk3h16Vrb2tVWKE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=u/eKFyKA8pVOR43xJrK3xOackCdSObaoBJVEPlxAzKIMJ460Us9HHEyLwyuRJbCOgF 1Ch2tpCcXNeB1xQTT2It7o6c0D527wbUbMWjumT+rctEQ1CvrejZ5elhzAPlZpcHzr03 wUXWKc7apOguf8ynmemsIVC+25P46t8gQyFOA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.48.197 with SMTP id s5mr5008577bkf.177.1267569516646; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:38:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100302221651.GA22422@sdf.lonestar.org> References: <1f1080831003020851r6ef490f6ydf450d55606dedb1@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003020905o337c4d48v5160b5f407cd9858@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003020925y71c7f15dwca7b88e469bae65c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003021049p6b332d66r6f6b3e9de8fbc8a3@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003021058h471a4e6ft542178ad0f246b2c@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003021110o1186b4b6pf68a281a0260acd9@mail.gmail.com> <20100302221651.GA22422@sdf.lonestar.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:38:36 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561003021438w3b8b37die5fe6f1ab803a028@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Asking specific questions From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Minimiscience wro= te: > > I'm not entirely sure what "exceptions" xorxes was referring to, but I ca= n't > think of any that actually break any prior rules. =A0All of the {fu'ivla}= listed > on jbovlaste have a consonant pair in the first five letters, with the po= ssible > exceptions of a few words that break the rule if & only if you count > apostrophes & leading periods as letters (which you're not supposed to do= for > the purposes of the rule). Things like "ba'aunki". (Not that that specific word has been proposed as a fu'ivla, it's just an example of the form.) There is no reason for saying that that is not a valid fu'ivla, other than the arbitrary five-letter rule. You could forbid it, but with no reasonable justification. Notice that ".a'aunki" is perfectly fine, which makes forbidding "ba'aunki" even more strange. But that is not the biggest problem with the "five-letter rule". The biggest problem is that people tend to misread it. All CLL says is that all brivla have a CC in their first five letters. People read it as saying that anything with a CC in the first five letters is a brivla, which is just wrong. Consider for example "miklama", or "slinku'i", or the form that started this, "xumymetano". They are not brivla, even though they obey the famous "five-letter rule". > =A0As for sequences with CCs in the first five letters > that aren't {brivla}, just look at {cmene}. =A0I honestly have no idea wh= at > xorxes had in mind, but the only non-erroneous interpretation of his e-ma= il > that makes any sense to me is that you shouldn't just blindly put all of = your > trust in the five-letter rule. =A0If there actually are any Lojban uttera= nces > that subvert the whole of the {brivla} morphology, I would very much like= to > see them. There is no problem with the brivla morphology when expressed correctly. The only problem is the silly "five-letter rule", which is wrong both ways: it is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for brivlahood. mu'o mi'e xorxes