From 3GwK1SwAAEB4FID54H-58ACHH8LMAIIAF8ALIOJM.6IG@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 13:29:37 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3GwK1SwAAEB4FID54H-58ACHH8LMAIIAF8ALIOJM.6IG@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxR1B-0006li-2B for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:37 -0700 Received: by pvb32 with SMTP id 32sf248774pvb.16 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XXWDaULm3VMQK+c4QQcgoiaLZp/OC73vFyucUkkN524=; b=lClNS9gEfb5dSEbPB54f/JQjkyS4isdfg162zpEI4SNkVDS/4yLSabcbSrDAg+ubi7 tKJN0cl0xYEc9p/2eEqCvFSG/U+gT+9J9vL5FA1cP9VaARIE28YwKmrb81HakGevztTT bQwj9c15nbWLmGHvR0JWBzecmg473BKs782eM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=oJmvL7n1aeEmEO+aoRKpnw/WO4vO2pjjMb2lGnbrKAFbeFZ349wEgKWkoguvqNFytm PZYPj4KdBxjyEik98IXehH2ovOgVX6+83MZ9PcpY9aycDYqN67neWNTF+CxpKPF4lQ/N cfjt7iFfsDCihSXELc5uuIvEc2S8b9kIISXQ0= Received: by 10.143.26.31 with SMTP id d31mr37054wfj.2.1270153755409; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.38.17 with SMTP id q17ls597043waj.0.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.98.1 with SMTP id a1mr336738wam.13.1270153753317; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.98.1 with SMTP id a1mr336737wam.13.1270153753206; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f52.google.com (mail-pw0-f52.google.com [209.85.160.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si1793605pzk.9.2010.04.01.13.29.12; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.52; Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1so1328426pwi.39 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.154.21 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f1080831003101520r1e87f21cuacb4cd23fa9a2d4c@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291044s3fe0f0a3u15493fcc855081a1@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291222m3aee5315xd909234ae2b92f38@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291306k4b7ef0e6u1e0ec0f9f7024415@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291502n2e214555y3a726fed512f0d1d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:29:11 -0400 Received: by 10.143.26.16 with SMTP id d16mr337293wfj.318.1270153751991; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Duration questions From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/8a645652df58adca X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/8bf8a7752d1f0b8e Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> =A0=A0But as I demonstrated that whole >> "relative to....somthing explicitly mentioned in the bridi itself" >> DOES/CAN take the time period to a completely new reference point. > > I thought that was MY point. "pu" always places the event relative to > some reference point, be it explicit or implicit. > >> "pu" can mean "before a a billion years in the future from now", >> "before Columbus sailed to North America" or "before I sit down to >> eat". =A0It no longer just means "before". =A0It means "before X" .... > > Indeed. > > Except I don't understand what you mean by "no longer just means > 'before'". A stand alone "before" is equivalent to "before now" or > "before then", it's just one more instance of "before X". Except that absent any other indicators (storytime or ki) that X is "now". Or just plain "before" in English. That's what I meant by "just before" -- "I went to the store before". > >> =A0No, I'm shifting the meaning from "a going that last long as goings >> go" to "a going that lasts long as ko'a goes" analagously =A0paralleling >> the way "pu klama" shifts to "pu ko'a" > > I don't think so. You don't use "jmive ze'u lo dunra" to mean "a life > that lasted long as winters go", do you? > >> Long for "le dunra", "the >> particular winter", is isomorphic with "the 66th-99th percentiles of >> all winter length samples drawn from a population of exactly one >> particular winter". =A0(Which of course, you will say, from a statistics >> point =A0of view is exactly the same as the length of that winter. >> Because the the "bell curve" here is a single point, one winters >> length, so the percentile you are looking at (ze'i, ze'a, or ze'u) is >> all the same. =A0But I'm assuming that there is another unspoken of >> winter that has 0 length, so now my population draws in the upper >> third (ze'u) will in fact average =A066%-99% of the particular winter) > > Was that another April Fool's joke? :) No, I was just trying to explain to you why I think the two formulations have exactly the same parallelism as pu SELBRI and pu X, and why I DON'T think that saying "ze'u le dunra" to mean "long, the winter" =3D "ze'a le dunra" to mean "medium, the winter" =3D"ze'i le dunra" meaning "short, the winter" and all meaning EXACTLY the same amount of time in the sentence "ko'a ZEhA le dunra cu broda" no matter which is used, when if you remove "le dunra", they are three different time periods? That's very unisometric. Mine correctly preserves the relationship of a short, medium, and long time periods of the nonsumti versions. > > If you want to use "ze'u ko'a" to mean "for a large fraction of ko'a", > you are of course free to do so, but I really, really don't see how > you can claim that this is just another instance of the usual pattern > of selbri tcita to sumti tcita relationship. In the usual pattern, > " broda" can always be expressed as "broda ko'a" by > choosing a suitable "ko'a". The tag always has the same effect on > broda, and ko'a only adds more information. > It still does. And with exactly the same "ko'a" as is currently defined for all PU/ZA/VI, etc. namely (are you ready?....) "ti". So how can "ze'u ti" mean "for a long time of this?" and still mean "for a long time"? Because how big/long a space/duration that "ti" occupies is entirely dependent on context. >>>>=A0(The same is true of all spatial >>>> tenses, too, of course. =A0I can be in this room, next to my computer = on >>>> my chair far-away chatting to you. =A0The first three would be tcita >>>> sumti, and the last would be a selbri tcita.) >>> >>> I would say the last one should be a seltau, not a tcita at all, since >>> "far away chatting" is a type of chatting, not the distance of the >>> event of you and I chatting being far away from some reference point. >> >> =A0Fair enough. =A0Actually, I would think of it as a tag on you >> (although we'd unfortunately have to momentarily and uglily selbriize >> you, because we have no other convenient way to tensify KOhA-- =A0"lo vu >> me do") =A0But I hope you got my point despite the clumsiness of my >> chosen example. > > Not sure what the point was here. If it was that FAhA works just like > PU, obviously I agree. If you were trying to establish a parallelism > between FAhA and your use of ZEhA, I don't see it. My point was that all tenses work the same no matter what subcalss they are -- tagged as sumti, they make their reference point that sumti. Without it, they make it "ti", or whatever your other default might be. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.