From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARCy3uPeBBoEFWKx_Q@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 28 19:30:25 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f143.google.com ([209.85.222.143]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O7JW7-0004UB-1y; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:25 -0700 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf4481830pzk.26 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:received:received :mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8vCXRP2Vu/P914LUoA7ljVwSgwUypboIcZo7sXpgrpc=; b=JEPvWFT9eC51sICnlYYMU1HS+YmtW8UPAnFAofy3Wjb5iQsuH+9kc/zVihd3gqSv3u 9TW0OzNBl51ig+ild/1SKqk9K8Jrh3rQSGKVN+FH0xxomK4nMu5woI8g56K16tiU+lga b6Kt52+geID2oDHIHj/1WHEm1RBzx2QzIy4Ds= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=QDB95QCzPY00Q8d6uhDN6dGQnwUne1l99Kld8WKljP5SSbiKTpi9MVt52GYWJSGqJw nJEkq+omFAqsEXOoHZr1dOZQrEol/PgpzpVJ/yfEmmsc6vdRG479XbQFmPcAfTUqhNHb WE0AxUoUnF901yw/F6Lszi+zYCL3bpuFcfl3s= Received: by 10.115.100.14 with SMTP id c14mr1200392wam.24.1272508210599; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.114.253.13 with SMTP id a13ls54048292wai.3.p; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.102.26 with SMTP id e26mr847728wam.3.1272508208996; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.102.26 with SMTP id e26mr847727wam.3.1272508208951; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id u10si290157wak.6.2010.04.28.19.30.07; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.49 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.49; Received: (qmail 8185 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2010 02:30:07 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 29 Apr 2010 02:30:07 -0000 Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O7JVt-0004Ri-Il for lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:05 -0700 Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com ([209.85.221.179]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O7JVo-0004Nn-On for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:05 -0700 Received: by qyk9 with SMTP id 9so22312679qyk.1 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:29:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.38.141 with SMTP id b13mr4786285qce.97.1272508194277; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.71.8 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:29:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:29:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Conditionals--da'i etc. From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.49 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of nobody@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=nobody@digitalkingdom.org; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163630f0b5e4cc5e048556e6b6 --00163630f0b5e4cc5e048556e6b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Typo: the second one should be {.i da'i ganai broda gi brode}. On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Off the top of my head I can think of basically 3 main conditional cases: > If p, which is definitely possible, then q > If p, which might happen, then q > If p, which is known to be false, then q > > The case "if p, which is definitely true, then q" is also there but I can't > see much reason to use that outside of very formal settings like > mathematical proofs. > > How do we express these, exactly? The way I understand {da'i} is that {.i > ganai broda gi brode} is case 1 and {.i da'i ganai brode gi brode} is case > 2. Do I understand these correctly? If so, how does case 3 (the > contrary-to-fact case) work? > > A related question that came to mind when I considered what {da'inai} means > in the dictionary: does {nai nai} simply not do anything if attached to a > UI? I ask because I see "supposing" as one thing, "in fact" as another, and > "contrary to fact" as yet another. The latter two seem like they could > potentially be opposites. > > mu'o mi'e latros. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00163630f0b5e4cc5e048556e6b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Typo: the second one should be {.i da'i ganai broda gi brode}.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Off the top of my= head I can think of basically 3 main conditional cases:
If p, which is = definitely possible, then q
If p, which might happen, then q
If p, which is known to be false, then = q

The case "if p, which is definitely true, then q" is als= o there but I can't see much reason to use that outside of very formal = settings like mathematical proofs.

How do we express these, exactly? The way I understand {da'i} is th= at {.i ganai broda gi brode} is case 1 and {.i da'i ganai brode gi brod= e} is case 2. Do I understand these correctly? If so, how does case 3 (the = contrary-to-fact case) work?

A related question that came to mind when I considered what {da'ina= i} means in the dictionary: does {nai nai} simply not do anything if attach= ed to a UI? I ask because I see "supposing" as one thing, "i= n fact" as another, and "contrary to fact" as yet another. T= he latter two seem like they could potentially be opposites.

mu'o mi'e latros.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--00163630f0b5e4cc5e048556e6b6--