From lojban-beginners+bncCNTPpI2KGxCKoeTeBBoE7FqrgQ@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 28 21:52:40 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O7Ljn-0004Pv-Bb; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:40 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf32609017qyk.1 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=Zx+/9GDplxxGA73dmGbGGzFO5tMLnomsy2KRhTl4Trc=; b=jSpU8oNFR2I2vf8NvFZ0KE5Kzefj8d/A5tOLXA/DgqCa08dNMERhECrMbFjvnFrIsF g2bJ11tb0CYJqcblGyMuHIbqMC3kZveaFVid0ALJUGTZlpsPd8nO2cWZqB2g0k3g17cL 6yBmDBlCHqeBWgaj+QmVPLhaChWykV1U29JhI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=uYlSmCOHzmh4mt8NOimed5j2cwEfStTfyZsmQbBHTaxHPYKFiS1o0vOZut7cKgBGnE KjjMdQzO/uMCFC0l90HK9UrAUrDDbIIu7Yy6nVJKpd9ySEzlvSH9ASIcMUAyXxoUkKkq uhG/uc6Pr0D9pNARvux5a6Dz5ViWuBh1yQ9Zs= Received: by 10.229.117.134 with SMTP id r6mr696887qcq.4.1272516746114; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.10.160 with SMTP id p32ls57728438qcp.2.p; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.38.69 with SMTP id a5mr115557qce.3.1272516745173; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.38.69 with SMTP id a5mr115556qce.3.1272516745151; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si60795qyk.8.2010.04.28.21.52.25; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.122; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=5yfpY6a+vWfUYjBKf4bPJkZKLz0VBYFTnnPBrA4h/TU= c=1 sm=0 a=ymbCwxyEMfoA:10 a=ORa4HqFjfvEA:10 a=Q9fys5e9bTEA:10 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:17 a=P5HnyshFiYwoL7HU7v8A:9 a=N01Xto_W0rmJZKkD_-iZ9x3niocA:4 a=PUjeQqilurYA:10 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:40836] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 1D/AF-20383-88019DB4; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 04:52:24 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8989059A5 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 00:52:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Conditionals--da'i etc. Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 00:52:20 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201004290052.21543.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday 28 April 2010 21:06:32 Ian Johnson wrote: > Off the top of my head I can think of basically 3 main conditional cases: > If p, which is definitely possible, then q > If p, which might happen, then q > If p, which is known to be false, then q > > The case "if p, which is definitely true, then q" is also there but I can= 't > see much reason to use that outside of very formal settings like > mathematical proofs. > > How do we express these, exactly? The way I understand {da'i} is that {.i > ganai broda gi brode} is case 1 and {.i da'i ganai brode gi brode} is cas= e > 2. Do I understand these correctly? If so, how does case 3 (the > contrary-to-fact case) work? To me "da'i" covers both things that might happen and things that are known= =20 not to happen. To distinguish them you can add "cu'i", "ru'e", "sai",=20 or "cai". I put "da'i" right after "ganai" or "gi" or after "broda"=20 or "brode"; putting it between "i" and "ganai" makes the whole sentence, no= t=20 just one clause, a counterfactual. "Suppose that if foo, then bar." Also, not every English "if" corresponds to "ganai" in Lojban. Sometimes it= 's=20 better to say "lo nu broda cu nibli/rinka/selja'e lo nu brode". Pierre --=20 When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. 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