From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARCgxeveBBoEhZaeIg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 30 07:01:52 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f149.google.com ([209.85.221.149]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O7qmn-0000rm-MW; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:51 -0700 Received: by qyk13 with SMTP id 13sf124239qyk.1 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NRTQZT+2Z7K1p4kr7an56emuuV+kyjYjK0wQYW2bBiM=; b=MkjNNMACI29SOO33uNsQ61+zQ2Gu7EahANlLDOrKXYNdq+tFl7tO8ErVdkVapOTWmt mNmv6Bc0TiajuPLL+KG4bW0XhOvQL3+E8bSOj1jxdRfiBEfbyFC21l1Lfx1zXmmJjxWI 8e8A+hCTYYfcVvLU0cdmdvablEJmhENvJV/Vg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=KT0kXFLk6xYHMCabJ1212cXBP7HB/VUI7aNPP2AhtmtniVKGnYhYtAdzm4mj+7B9AI Cmd1+53FvbrpqiGy81in8TUg8sNINfHIC55xsRJw27oPixCFlhku9f4/qCC+AsnAKENe URBkOkObxKcFL0sttBCcGj5sy6cZxhqNZOS4k= Received: by 10.224.40.7 with SMTP id i7mr722490qae.48.1272636065646; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.59.82 with SMTP id k18ls9300649qah.5.p; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.43.84 with SMTP id v20mr440117qae.2.1272636063403; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.43.84 with SMTP id v20mr440116qae.2.1272636063351; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si198304qyk.14.2010.04.30.07.01.02; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.48; Received: by vws13 with SMTP id 13so179919vws.7 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.107.5 with SMTP id z5mr7859515vco.103.1272636061808; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.167.142 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:01:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BD94677.6060909@lojban.org> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 10:01:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Conditionals--da'i etc. From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f8a4db26489d4048574ac16 --00c09f8a4db26489d4048574ac16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So nibli is not defined using the classical implication, then? Because in the classical implication "pigs can fly implies that the sky is green" is (assuming that we haven't done something really bizarre to the pigs) true. mu'o mi'e latros. 2010/4/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > Related question: how is nibli defined, exactly? Based on what I've > learned > > in logic-heavy math classes, this should be true: > > > > .i lo du'u broda cu nibli lo du'u brode .ijo ganai broda gi brode > > > > Is it? > > Not really. The nibli-statement on the left is a much stronger > statement than the material implication connective on the right. > > Suppose: > > broda =3D Eyjafjallaj=F6kull is a volcano in Iceland. > brode =3D Paris is the capital of France. > > Both "broda" and "brode" happen to be true, so "ganai broda gi brode" > is also true. > > But "lo du'u broda cu nibli lo du'u brode" says that starting from > "broda", and applying the logical rules of inference (implicit in the > x3 of nibli, let's assume the usual ones) then you can infer "brode". > But you can't really infer "Paris is the capital of France" from > "Eyjafjallaj=F6kull is a volcano in Iceland". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --00c09f8a4db26489d4048574ac16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So nibli is not defined using=A0the classical implication, then? Becau= se in the classical implication "pigs can fly implies that the sky is = green" is (assuming that we haven't=A0done=A0something really biza= rre to the pigs)=A0true.

mu'o mi'e latros.
=A0
2010/4/30 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:> Related question: how is nibli defined, exactly? Based on what I'= ve learned
> in logic-heavy math classes, this should be true:
>
> .i l= o du'u broda cu nibli lo du'u brode .ijo ganai broda gi brode
&g= t;
> Is it?

Not really. The nibli-statement on the left = is a much stronger
statement than the material implication connective on the right.

Sup= pose:

broda =3D Eyjafjallaj=F6kull is a volcano in Iceland.
brode= =3D Paris is the capital of France.

Both "broda" and &quo= t;brode" happen to be true, so "ganai broda gi brode"
is also true.

But "lo du'u broda cu nibli lo du'u brode= " says that starting from
"broda", and applying the logic= al rules of inference (implicit in the
x3 of nibli, let's assume the= usual ones) then you can infer "brode".
But you can't really infer "Paris is the capital of France" f= rom
"Eyjafjallaj=F6kull is a volcano in Iceland".

mu= 9;o mi'e xorxes

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