From 3zSy4SwAAEP0qtogfs-gjlnssjwxlttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com Sat Apr 03 23:08:36 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3zSy4SwAAEP0qtogfs-gjlnssjwxlttlqjlwtzux.htr@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NyJ0Z-0008Rt-F6 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:36 -0700 Received: by pvf33 with SMTP id 33sf458083pvf.16 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=dFPqz/vQ7SFJLWjLgrhNXYz47pGWrQFmKh8Ja17OcT0=; b=KI7D4e7eRnUa+Wq14S9n5oTteoe0O5mAuyzfNkbkTeG4F5IoGwZYWTbPefZAXt6zaG aqT5WQkn3de11RRDjRmU2g205/K/+/AUR+90Xouvw9K1NoLgX6mGF7P6pTjUljlBQ0jG cMJiWLLHYxd4Z3HtF+o6B/uFP5hqIAunajXsU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=lm6gz87hGC2Sk6HrGxwmETB4HgipLiCtg30NRz+F4VzxcKnxwss5Uun/V/Ab6z4kT3 BjGm7Gss/vd0A4onXqSaZjwrOOKDWY4gV55xv0N0TbTaqfujk92K58xHXCU5pujU/o4w qCqMZD6OZuBNo342VtDnGToo/RHsc/8pp8w6E= Received: by 10.142.249.30 with SMTP id w30mr90483wfh.10.1270361293898; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.250.36 with SMTP id x36ls718728wfh.2.p; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.129.7 with SMTP id g7mr454443wfn.27.1270361292469; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.129.7 with SMTP id g7mr454442wfn.27.1270361292424; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f173.google.com (mail-pv0-f173.google.com [74.125.83.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si145921pzk.11.2010.04.03.23.08.11; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of raposa.msscripting@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.173; Received: by pvc21 with SMTP id 21so1229865pvc.32 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.72.21 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 00:08:11 -0600 Received: by 10.143.26.41 with SMTP id d41mr1307015wfj.316.1270361291333; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about ordering of predicate-places From: Brian Robertson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of raposa.msscripting@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=raposa.msscripting@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: raposa.msscripting@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/a21cade818909636 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/bd862b5d5604155 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e0af3281a164048363098c --001636e0af3281a164048363098c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Placement seems to be fairly regular. Destination before origin; as in klama. Container before contained objects (hinted at by the fact that they're 'container' gismu); as in tanxe, bakfu, dakli. If there is an agent of the action then it comes early, whatever the action is being performed on comes after; look at cusku, tavla. People, animals, objects and the like generally come before information unless the information is part of the action or is significantly more important than the people; see dunda, ckule, vecnu. Just a couple, hopefully others have more. Hugglesworth. On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Christopher Doty wrote: > In trying to really get a handle on the various places of different gismu, > I'm wondering what logic, if any, is present in the ordering of the places? > I don't mean this to imply that the ordering isn't logical, I'm just > wondering if there are patterns I haven't noticed yet that might be helpful. > E.g.: > > For movement gismu, is origin always before destination? > For container gismu, is the thing contained always before the material of > the container? > Etc. > > Are there patterns like this in the gismu structures that might help in > learning and memorizing? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --001636e0af3281a164048363098c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Placement seems to be fairly regular.

Destination before origin; as = in klama.
Container before contained objects (hinted at by the fact that= they're 'container' gismu); as in tanxe, bakfu, dakli.
If t= here is an agent of the action then it comes early, whatever the action is = being performed on comes after; look at cusku, tavla.
People, animals, objects and the like generally come before information unl= ess the information is part of the action or is significantly more importan= t than the people; see dunda, ckule, vecnu.

Just a couple, hopefully= others have more.

Hugglesworth.

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at = 10:37 AM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
In trying to really get a handle on the various places of different gismu, = I'm wondering what logic, if any, is present in the ordering of the pla= ces? =A0I don't mean this to imply that the ordering isn't logical,= I'm just wondering if there are patterns I haven't noticed yet tha= t might be helpful. =A0E.g.:

For movement gismu, is origin always before destination?
For container gismu, is the thing contained always before the materi= al of the container?
Etc.

Are there patt= erns like this in the gismu structures that might help in learning and memo= rizing?

Thanks,

Chris

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