From lojban-beginners+bncCO2N0YfCFhDL24beBBoE7Jqhxg@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 04:09:13 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f140.google.com ([209.85.210.140]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O0v2K-0005PJ-LC; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:09:13 -0700 Received: by yxe4 with SMTP id 4sf2423021yxe.28 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:09:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:x-originating-ip:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Jy5PYuCJbEQ1GZYdHffUUmW93ZyR+cW4RifgfIN8hnE=; b=QRlOFFbklLDBUYYM0k0Dg1nT1mLc4wJ4//RFYOEPlom6vlNXWUt8qRQTQ+PMyINR+6 iUNeybPL49S7Cv4Yv+oKmhAoJ6ib6xQWO+KDobBUjcFgHZqwI8Ga06wGfGhlrayt9APx 9an/Azi+C+exbD7Q0UZ7FFU4mdI6EL8Ydtjoo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-originating-ip:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=Gfoxv5f1iqhow0BFH0yCg2kDTwLJIWXv3IpOj1rj8oRvjaF+cpvIuuYAhTpH5Ew++6 bXWtl9XyDF5/biuc0lNS9o/6Lg1G5NzQBMoIxpvundOEk53UamXBk/NBGTA6aiTCRcVq MVSnwZfqGWQtGzXopsI3j8a0mz+0KKei6tlzQ= Received: by 10.91.91.9 with SMTP id t9mr424483agl.50.1270984139987; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.114.131 with SMTP id e3ls127237ibq.3.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.6 with SMTP id r6mr253989ibv.20.1270984138881; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.6 with SMTP id r6mr253988ibv.20.1270984138857; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kcout02.prserv.net (kcout02.prserv.net [12.154.55.32]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si427181iwn.12.2010.04.11.04.08.58; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 12.154.55.32 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kpreid@switchb.org) client-ip=12.154.55.32; Received: from 216-171-189-244.northland.net ([216.171.189.244]) by prserv.net (kcout02) with SMTP id <2010041111085820200e0uipe> (Authid: usinet.kpreid); Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:08:58 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [216.171.189.244] Message-Id: From: Kevin Reid To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Biting off way more than I can chew -- and loving it! Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 07:08:57 -0400 References: <65acaf76-6714-432b-8ffd-c4fcb99a809e@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> <201004110516.32188.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 12.154.55.32 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kpreid@switchb.org) smtp.mail=kpreid@switchb.org X-Original-Sender: kpreid@switchb.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/cb7dd695a460ac23 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/6e9531621ccf44cc Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Apr 11, 2010, at 6:30, Gearhead Shem Tov wrote: > NQ2: OK, the first full sentence in English and my first crack at the > bits of vocab I hazard I'll need, no serious attempt at grammatical > construction yet: > > S1: Martha Dane paused, looking up at the purple-tinged copper > sky. > L1: martas.dein. [sisti] [catlu--look/observe] [zirpu-- > purple] [tunka--copper] [tsani--sky/heavens] > > From skimming "What is Lojban?" I think I need some sort of logical > connection between [sisti] and [catlu] to capture the sequential-ness > (how's that for linguistic savvy...) of Martha's actions, Well, first you need an article. la.martas.dein. sisti ... Regarding "paused, looking", that kind of 'is doing both' structure is usually a bridi-tail connective: la.martas.dein. sisti gi'e catlu ... If both actions are specifically occurring at the same time, we could throw in a tense as well: la.martas.dein. sisti gi'ecabo catlu ... Or if they're pausing and *then* looking up: la.martas.dein. sisti gi'ebabo catlu ... However, {sisti} may not be as good a word here as {denpa}, since {sisti} doesn't also mention resuming. Depends on what's said later, really. > but I also > suppose I might be able to make a tanru out of [purple-tinged copper > sky] just by mooshing them into [zirpu tunka tsani], e.g. a purple- > type-of copper-type-of sky. Would this work, or does it do violence > to the original English meaning and/or lojban? It works, but I would not care for a Lojban text to contain that sort of distant metaphor unless it was more metaphorical in general. A bridi for "colored the same color as copper" would be, most precisely skari lo se skari be lo tunka or, cutting it down to "colored as of copper" skari tu'a lo tunka or if one finds it acceptable to treat "copper" as a color in clear context, skari lo tunka In order to take a selbri and some sumti and stuff it in a tanru or sumti (as I did in the first {skari} sentence above), one uses {be}, and we'll need a terminator {ku} to separate it from the rest of the tanru: skari be lo tunka ku Let's put it together. If we want to say the sky is a (purple-ish copper) color, ordinary tanru grouping happens to be the right thing: zirpu skari be lo tunka ku tsani Putting this into the rest of the sentence, Martha Dane paused , looking up at the purple-tinged copper sky. la.martas.dein. sisti gi'e catlu le zirpu skari be lo tunka ku tsani Now, it doesn't make much difference here since there's only one sky, but this is a restrictive rather than incidental description of the sky. To actually have the intended logical meaning ("looking up at the sky, which is purple-tinged copper"), we use a {noi} (incidental) relative clause: la.martas.dein. sisti gi'e catlu le noi zirpu skari be lo tunka ku'o tsani If preserving the original word order is not interesting, one might put the incidental clause at the end: la.martas.dein. sisti gi'e catlu le tsani noi zirpu skari be lo tunka But that might put too much emphasis on the color by making it what the sentence ends with. -- Kevin Reid -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.