From lojban-beginners+bncCJbznvHdFRCthYjeBBoEVVhAmw@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 10:11:29 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O10go-0000Gv-RY; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:29 -0700 Received: by vws6 with SMTP id 6sf9733vws.16 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=aijzvH262nOfVZDk7VS0QkBitj1hm19L6V+p7euf7BU=; b=u/Lmhp1L9H/naby644vhlaatJFW8H2B0BEFJ677LKYKFCptOa0wRdXOWU6HCDXXXEg N0GOmZaCD6Jmt3+8qjsUjW0WeMDKzBoOkpOykG9Ctz1+bgrt/OUV5D0H1iV2lKioF0W+ 4RAGipdtE1fmcyMvjP4Nn0hyRoPW8Mn55o0VE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=en5xShtGZXmwjv6w1pDTujAjXBEvirsex8AO+ascdU77z3eY3eUsROGEYeR9JJ55+D ncjh/OHKGQyeUOlmfY1quoiufrK+9MOAUiMvobeq7tg2CXGLmt4JJNusp1jaNpgMmd/y 1QxxEWU5LsaqByq6ep4RmwmbOVsPUTr2FOvHU= Received: by 10.220.107.101 with SMTP id a37mr205386vcp.43.1271005869931; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.85 with SMTP id o21ls545197vck.0.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.162.3 with SMTP id t3mr689107vcx.23.1271005868392; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.162.3 with SMTP id t3mr689106vcx.23.1271005868359; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f186.google.com (mail-yw0-f186.google.com [209.85.211.186]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si9042081vws.0.2010.04.11.10.11.07; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.186 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.211.186; Received: by ywh16 with SMTP id 16so1065721ywh.32 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.91.20 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <65acaf76-6714-432b-8ffd-c4fcb99a809e@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> References: <65acaf76-6714-432b-8ffd-c4fcb99a809e@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:11:06 -0400 Received: by 10.101.139.28 with SMTP id r28mr4892372ann.188.1271005867007; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Biting off way more than I can chew -- and loving it! From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.211.186 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/cb7dd695a460ac23 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/75ef8eabf264c270 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d3de5b35e0a10483f91df7 --0016e6d3de5b35e0a10483f91df7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It's been my experience over decades that translation is not the best first step to learning a language. One should try to learn the language to some (perhaps low) level of competence before attempting serious translation. OTOH, I'd really like to see a good translation of "Omnilingual". stevo On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Gearhead Shem Tov wrote: > This is my first post about lojban ever. I'm a Yank expat living in > Adelaide, South Australia. I'm a recovering engineer, a published SF > author, and I'm currently studying to be a sculptor (long story...). > > I'm also a dire lojban newbie, and after years of furtive peeks at > the language, I want to finally make a serious attempt to learn it. I > propose as my first foray into lojbanistan a short story translation. > In the spirit of "anything worth doing is worth overdoing" and since I > have a science fiction writerly disposition, the logical point of > departure for me would be to translate a substantial SF story. > > I have studied a couple languages very different to English -- two > years each of Japanese and German, with a smattering of Hebrew, > Russian, Spanish, and Swedish (and FORTRAN, Pascal, Modula 2, and > Forth :), so I know this project is very ambitious. I figure I'll > take it a sentence at a time with the notion that I'll have to ask > lots of naive questions and my translations will be crap at the > outset. As I progress I hope my questions will become monotonically > more interesting and the translation correspondingly smoother. To > keep me motivated I would probably blog the whole process (unless > somebody has a better suggestion); perhaps other beginners would find > such a blog of interest. > > But what story to translate? I wouldn't want to use any of my own > published stories (my ego is large, but not that large). It would > need to be another author's story, a story that I admire that is > either in the public domain or the translation rights to which I could > easily obtain. It would be a bonus if the story had something to do > with linguistics and translation, something that would force me to > thoroughly grasp lojban meta-language constructs beyond learning > workaday gismu, cmene, and cmavo. > > By chance a few days ago I came across my favourite H. Beam Piper > story online, Omnilingual from Astounding Stories, 1957. To my > astonishment I found it is available as a Project Gutenberg text. > > It's some 16K words -- about 1K sentences. OK, so it's more a novella > than a short story. Still, I reckon it would take me a year if I > average three sentences per day. > > So, here is Naive Question # 1 (NQ1): > > In my cursory reading of lojban orthography I've found no instance of > an mn consonant cluster, but neither have I found a rule clearly > forbidding it. Would .OMni.LINguyl. be a reasonable -- or even legal > -- lojbanisation of "Omnilingual"? Or would it need to be more > like .omyniLINguyl. ? > > Thanks! > > -Bobby > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016e6d3de5b35e0a10483f91df7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's been my experience over decades that translation is not the b= est first step to learning a language. One should try to learn the language= to some (perhaps low) level of competence before attempting serious transl= ation.
OTOH, I'd really like to see a good translation of "Omnilingu= al".
=A0
stevo

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Gearhead Shem T= ov <bnanse= l@internode.on.net> wrote:
This is my first post about lojb= an ever. =A0I'm a Yank expat living in
Adelaide, South Australia. = =A0I'm a recovering engineer, a published SF
author, and I'm currently studying to be a sculptor (long story...).
I'm also a dire lojban newbie, and after years of furtive peeks at=
the language, I want to finally make a serious attempt to learn it. =A0= I
propose as my first foray into lojbanistan a short story translation.
In= the spirit of "anything worth doing is worth overdoing" and sinc= e I
have a science fiction writerly disposition, the logical point of departure for me would be to translate a substantial SF story.

I hav= e studied a couple languages very different to English -- two
years each= of Japanese and German, with a smattering of Hebrew,
Russian, Spanish, = and Swedish (and FORTRAN, Pascal, Modula 2, and
Forth :), so I know this project is very ambitious. =A0I figure I'lltake it a sentence at a time with the notion that I'll have to ask
= lots of naive questions and my translations will be crap at the
outset. = =A0As I progress I hope my questions will become monotonically
more interesting and the translation correspondingly smoother. =A0To
kee= p me motivated I would probably blog the whole process (unless
somebody = has a better suggestion); perhaps other beginners would find
such a blog= of interest.

But what story to translate? =A0I wouldn't want to use any of my ow= n
published stories (my ego is large, but not that large). =A0It wouldneed to be another author's story, a story that I admire that is
e= ither in the public domain or the translation rights to which I could
easily obtain. =A0It would be a bonus if the story had something to do
w= ith linguistics and translation, something that would force me to
thorou= ghly grasp lojban meta-language constructs beyond learning
workaday gism= u, cmene, and cmavo.

By chance a few days ago I came across my favourite H. Beam Piper
st= ory online, Omnilingual from Astounding Stories, 1957. =A0To my
astonish= ment I found it is available as a Project Gutenberg text.

It's s= ome 16K words -- about 1K sentences. =A0OK, so it's more a novella
than a short story. =A0Still, =A0I reckon it would take me a year if I
a= verage three sentences per day.

So, here is Naive Question # 1 (NQ1)= :

In my cursory reading of lojban orthography I've found no inst= ance of
an mn consonant cluster, but neither have I found a rule clearly
forbidd= ing it. =A0Would .OMni.LINguyl. be a reasonable -- or even legal
-- lojb= anisation of "Omnilingual"? =A0Or would it need to be more
lik= e .omyniLINguyl. ?

Thanks!

-Bobby

--
You received= this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban = Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com<= /a>.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://gr= oups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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