From 3L9y0SwAAEAwx0vnmz-nqsuzzq34s00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 10:47:55 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3L9y0SwAAEAwx0vnmz-nqsuzzq34s00sxqs30614.o0y@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxOUc-0005gE-2m for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:52 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf1084219gyd.16 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=AwNoOMpiV8XneDqhkf48B/0cgxUsjxP5GXaKPcMBo0U=; b=GLHsJfwbe/MrTFZTzffZEwUkJQdOPxZQQStIEyMYbmUC3GI6XTpxXt3KAp0pqlOIQd 7paAIEVzZ/v56emUGPZoDY4mgRtiikrzJ/HPrGzbvf88/xORmPPTSeDRl9odknOdh8nS ok43eJl5h3HCqd/A63E3MMxw3sE5YpTxZjN/A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=l1+tYVa82GsdqByThd6YHV5KLAPSQ0ZX51RwgtuWbO74r1kWO+2srrZZmMKf47FNGe KK1Oa2Q5rxsazNKA4QxU/+c1e0WcbymDOd2VCW9Oqx+aZsyvYNtvvi0Zib6UgWwp8Eia FO81nWFIEPLtQ6diKANOsBxXuDFuAtOXp6Y0s= Received: by 10.90.62.19 with SMTP id k19mr141785aga.55.1270144047883; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.6.87 with SMTP id 23ls685786bky.0.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr82277bkx.16.1270144045069; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.161.203 with SMTP id s11mr82275bkx.16.1270144044979; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f45.google.com (mail-vw0-f45.google.com [209.85.212.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h3si2095763bke.0.2010.04.01.10.47.23; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.45; Received: by vws18 with SMTP id 18so269648vws.32 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.100.73 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f1080831003101520r1e87f21cuacb4cd23fa9a2d4c@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c161003101532q3bf8ca8exc72b1fb3c5bcc9c@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291044s3fe0f0a3u15493fcc855081a1@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291222m3aee5315xd909234ae2b92f38@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291306k4b7ef0e6u1e0ec0f9f7024415@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291502n2e214555y3a726fed512f0d1d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:47:22 -0400 Received: by 10.220.107.105 with SMTP id a41mr525548vcp.59.1270144042726; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Duration questions From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/8a645652df58adca X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/e3152f99bb911ab9 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f8c26237afc0c0483307423 --00c09f8c26237afc0c0483307423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Slightly off topic... In the bridi {zu de'a limna} am I saying that I swim for a long time and then pause, or that I am pausing for a long amount of time? On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > 2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: > >> 2010/3/29 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > >>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Michael Turniansky > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> For example... mi pu klama le zarci -- I went > >>>> to the store before this point. > >>> > >>> Assuming you already know, or can figure out, that the reference poin= t > >>> is "this point", "now". > >> > >> By definition, it always is, unless a previous "ki" has made it > something else. > > > > Not always: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c10/s14.html > > (even there, he starts the story with "puzuki". :-) But yes, I take > your point, that you are talking about the implicit progression of > storytime. I actually had that in mind as well. My fault was in the > imprecise use of the English. When I said, "this point", that also > was meant to include the meaning of "at this point in the story" if we > are talking in the context of "storytime") > > > > > But even if "pu klama" always did mean "pu lo nau cabna cu klama", the > > point remains valid: "pu", whether as selbri tcita or as sumti tcita > > always indicates the placement in time of the event described by the > > main selbri, relative to something else. That something can be a > > default, a semi-default, something explicitly fixed previously, or > > something explicitly mentioned in the bridi itself. > > We have no disagreement here. But as I demonstrated that whole > "relative to....somthing explicitly mentioned in the bridi itself" > DOES/CAN take the time period to a completely new reference point. > "pu" can mean "before a a billion years in the future from now", > "before Columbus sailed to North America" or "before I sit down to > eat". It no longer just means "before". It means "before X" .... > > > > The convention you are using for ZEhA is different. You are shifting > > the meaning of "ze'u klama" from "a going that lasts long as goings > > go", to "ze'u ko'a klama", "a going that lasts for a large fraction of > > ko'a", which need not be long at all as goings go. > > > > No, I'm shifting the meaning from "a going that last long as goings > go" to "a going that lasts long as ko'a goes" analagously paralleling > the way "pu klama" shifts to "pu ko'a" Long for "le dunra", "the > particular winter", is isomorphic with "the 66th-99th percentiles of > all winter length samples drawn from a population of exactly one > particular winter". (Which of course, you will say, from a statistics > point of view is exactly the same as the length of that winter. > Because the the "bell curve" here is a single point, one winters > length, so the percentile you are looking at (ze'i, ze'a, or ze'u) is > all the same. But I'm assuming that there is another unspoken of > winter that has 0 length, so now my population draws in the upper > third (ze'u) will in fact average 66%-99% of the particular winter) > > > > Well, I think an event can be short in a sense and long in another > > sense at the same time, since short and long can be highly subjective, > > but that's a different point. My point is that tags, whether used as > > selbri tcita or as sumti tcita, should always apply to the event > > described by the main selbri. > > > And here again, we don't disagree. tcita sumti provide the > reference point for understanding the main bridi. > > >> (The same is true of all spatial > >> tenses, too, of course. I can be in this room, next to my computer on > >> my chair far-away chatting to you. The first three would be tcita > >> sumti, and the last would be a selbri tcita.) > > > > I would say the last one should be a seltau, not a tcita at all, since > > "far away chatting" is a type of chatting, not the distance of the > > event of you and I chatting being far away from some reference point. > > Fair enough. Actually, I would think of it as a tag on you > (although we'd unfortunately have to momentarily and uglily selbriize > you, because we have no other convenient way to tensify KOhA-- "lo vu > me do") But I hope you got my point despite the clumsiness of my > chosen example. > > --gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --00c09f8c26237afc0c0483307423 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Slightly off topic... =A0In the bridi {zu de'a limna} am I saying that = I swim for a long time and then pause, or that I am pausing for a long =A0a= mount of time?

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:= 51 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Michael Turniansky > <mturniansky@gmail.com= > wrote:
>> 2010/3/29 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Michael Turniansky
>>> <mturniansky@gmail= .com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>=A0 For example... mi pu klama le zarci -- I went
>>>> to the store before this point.
>>>
>>> Assuming you already know, or can figure out, that the referen= ce point
>>> is "this point", "now".
>>
>> By definition, it always is, unless a previous "ki" has = made it something else.
>
> Not always: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c10/s14.html

(even there, he starts the story with "puzuki". =A0:-) =A0B= ut yes, I take
your point, that you are talking about the implicit progression of
storytime. =A0I actually had that in mind as well. =A0My fault was in the imprecise use of the English. =A0When I said, "this point", that = also
was meant to include the meaning of "at this point in the story" = if we
are talking in the context of "storytime")

>
> But even if "pu klama" always did mean "pu lo nau cabna= cu klama", the
> point remains valid: "pu", whether as selbri tcita or as sum= ti tcita
> always indicates the placement in time of the event described by the > main selbri, relative to something else. That something can be a
> default, a semi-default, something explicitly fixed previously, or
> something explicitly mentioned in the bridi itself.

=A0We have no disagreement here. =A0But as I demonstrated that whole=
"relative to....somthing explicitly mentioned in the bridi itself"= ;
DOES/CAN take the time period to a completely new reference point.
"pu" can mean "before a a billion years in the future from n= ow",
"before Columbus sailed to North America" or "before I sit d= own to
eat". =A0It no longer just means "before". =A0It means "= ;before X" ....
>
> The convention you are using for ZEhA is different. You are shifting > the meaning of "ze'u klama" from "a going that last= s long as goings
> go", to "ze'u ko'a klama", "a going that l= asts for a large fraction of
> ko'a", which need not be long at all as goings go.
>

=A0No, I'm shifting the meaning from "a going that last lon= g as goings
go" to "a going that lasts long as ko'a goes" analagousl= y =A0paralleling
the way "pu klama" shifts to "pu ko'a" =A0 Long for= "le dunra", "the
particular winter", is isomorphic with "the 66th-99th percentiles= of
all winter length samples drawn from a population of exactly one
particular winter". =A0(Which of course, you will say, from a statisti= cs
point =A0of view is exactly the same as the length of that winter.
Because the the "bell curve" here is a single point, one winters<= br> length, so the percentile you are looking at (ze'i, ze'a, or ze'= ;u) is
all the same. =A0But I'm assuming that there is another unspoken of
winter that has 0 length, so now my population draws in the upper
third (ze'u) will in fact average =A066%-99% of the particular winter)<= br>


> Well, I think an event can be short in a sense and long in another
> sense at the same time, since short and long can be highly subjective,=
> but that's a different point. My point is that tags, whether used = as
> selbri tcita or as sumti tcita, should always apply to the event
> described by the main selbri.
>
=A0 And here again, we don't disagree. =A0tcita sumti provide th= e
reference point for understanding the main bridi.

>>=A0(The same is true of all spatial
>> tenses, too, of course. =A0I can be in this room, next to my compu= ter on
>> my chair far-away chatting to you. =A0The first three would be tci= ta
>> sumti, and the last would be a selbri tcita.)
>
> I would say the last one should be a seltau, not a tcita at all, since=
> "far away chatting" is a type of chatting, not the distance = of the
> event of you and I chatting being far away from some reference point.<= br>
=A0Fair enough. =A0Actually, I would think of it as a tag on you
(although we'd unfortunately have to momentarily and uglily selbriize you, because we have no other convenient way to tensify KOhA-- =A0"lo = vu
me do") =A0But I hope you got my point despite the clumsiness of my chosen example.

=A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

--
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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