From 3ouG0SwoJEIQrrttiujqi0ouiqt.kwutwrjiv-jmoqvvmz0owwotmozw2x0.kwu@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 11:11:14 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3ouG0SwoJEIQrrttiujqi0ouiqt.kwutwrjiv-jmoqvvmz0owwotmozw2x0.kwu@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxOr6-0007Qy-QO for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:11:14 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf438604vws.16 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tqSQFrK0r5DmmKldg9vd3hjuvtWU9oD1M5h9mUxnRzY=; b=JCZNW852/8WYkWo/ulsOLq+fkSnNZBfAgd4rUl3YjV6Sa6mbf9QsED/CJbgt9kkVCg wk1Z1ZDP+t81O5sdDYrRn1QaLn6iwL7JGGNbdRRTzcOeQKsB7dHm0CREq/IJeFbs8Dzs p5aPRtce3YOy4k9I2cST9vUeBH+gcKxGyFDvg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=htKp/SWgmYJrHOmdthJidieIlacGwFQb7TJyG4cBIR3UQvfaqnLQUgseqTYzEqWDM0 OwLERATSqG0EcIZs20Q60fQYUncq+cjmygGYXlGMgG5K8rZLJHGKy5Wt68j9UxsSdMaX fDX+8N61xRZO94W8VGNbv1Cv7GsS7yGm+13H8= Received: by 10.220.122.234 with SMTP id m42mr108710vcr.59.1270145442414; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.85 with SMTP id o21ls417548vck.0.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr274814vcy.1.1270145440906; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.8 with SMTP id g8mr274813vcy.1.1270145440876; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f184.google.com (mail-qy0-f184.google.com [209.85.221.184]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 29si19681684vws.2.2010.04.01.11.10.39; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.184 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.184; Received: by mail-qy0-f184.google.com with SMTP id 14so1565248qyk.14 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.67 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f1080831003101520r1e87f21cuacb4cd23fa9a2d4c@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c161003101532q3bf8ca8exc72b1fb3c5bcc9c@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291044s3fe0f0a3u15493fcc855081a1@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291222m3aee5315xd909234ae2b92f38@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291306k4b7ef0e6u1e0ec0f9f7024415@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291502n2e214555y3a726fed512f0d1d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:10:39 -0300 Received: by 10.229.97.147 with SMTP id l19mr1855505qcn.24.1270145439549; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Duration questions From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.184 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/8a645652df58adca X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/392f549671988d8f Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > =A0But as I demonstrated that whole > "relative to....somthing explicitly mentioned in the bridi itself" > DOES/CAN take the time period to a completely new reference point. I thought that was MY point. "pu" always places the event relative to some reference point, be it explicit or implicit. > "pu" can mean "before a a billion years in the future from now", > "before Columbus sailed to North America" or "before I sit down to > eat". =A0It no longer just means "before". =A0It means "before X" .... Indeed. Except I don't understand what you mean by "no longer just means 'before'". A stand alone "before" is equivalent to "before now" or "before then", it's just one more instance of "before X". > =A0No, I'm shifting the meaning from "a going that last long as goings > go" to "a going that lasts long as ko'a goes" analagously =A0paralleling > the way "pu klama" shifts to "pu ko'a" I don't think so. You don't use "jmive ze'u lo dunra" to mean "a life that lasted long as winters go", do you? > Long for "le dunra", "the > particular winter", is isomorphic with "the 66th-99th percentiles of > all winter length samples drawn from a population of exactly one > particular winter". =A0(Which of course, you will say, from a statistics > point =A0of view is exactly the same as the length of that winter. > Because the the "bell curve" here is a single point, one winters > length, so the percentile you are looking at (ze'i, ze'a, or ze'u) is > all the same. =A0But I'm assuming that there is another unspoken of > winter that has 0 length, so now my population draws in the upper > third (ze'u) will in fact average =A066%-99% of the particular winter) Was that another April Fool's joke? :) If you want to use "ze'u ko'a" to mean "for a large fraction of ko'a", you are of course free to do so, but I really, really don't see how you can claim that this is just another instance of the usual pattern of selbri tcita to sumti tcita relationship. In the usual pattern, " broda" can always be expressed as "broda ko'a" by choosing a suitable "ko'a". The tag always has the same effect on broda, and ko'a only adds more information. >>>=A0(The same is true of all spatial >>> tenses, too, of course. =A0I can be in this room, next to my computer o= n >>> my chair far-away chatting to you. =A0The first three would be tcita >>> sumti, and the last would be a selbri tcita.) >> >> I would say the last one should be a seltau, not a tcita at all, since >> "far away chatting" is a type of chatting, not the distance of the >> event of you and I chatting being far away from some reference point. > > =A0Fair enough. =A0Actually, I would think of it as a tag on you > (although we'd unfortunately have to momentarily and uglily selbriize > you, because we have no other convenient way to tensify KOhA-- =A0"lo vu > me do") =A0But I hope you got my point despite the clumsiness of my > chosen example. Not sure what the point was here. If it was that FAhA works just like PU, obviously I agree. If you were trying to establish a parallelism between FAhA and your use of ZEhA, I don't see it. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.