From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARCHwYPfBBoEEPDgDw@googlegroups.com Tue May 04 20:05:58 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O9Uvp-0002yH-Kp; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:58 -0700 Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36sf2211376wyb.16 for ; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xejqS1pJCUDXAPzckCKIDU/gd1bleENsmBWkAYd01HQ=; b=BuDTHoBwxxoWqoMXoTAhX1LNqhU3YrBWU6vvC93nzlZ8q8PBHt2CfwbcHZ2o9wuQtV VpX4EfAgF0O4FQ86kjlcuTGmpDgkIndjDMCS1f4s9tk8Th1aXwEUHJo23GC/SIWhq5uW KI64h+0CGM1uXflV1vPGsh7SrrDcufEIF3TX8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=eGejQFMAp/nTXsuHYaId/wbcveprJgEzGC6pW8AeEFlfE3rOdFVnJE6JQXg2pOYOtF KPDpeuVMDonEks0wuvttLLrNpun/0GMgbIlGLp3mUi2wE10kp1Lph4XQ/cq6LSPMDY7/ KjTTMq62UVLtep7AtSbOWQkr53XCG91PX+DGc= Received: by 10.223.7.12 with SMTP id b12mr3102296fab.25.1273028743500; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.59.76 with SMTP id k12ls816182ebh.3.p; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.55.6 with SMTP id s6mr1334053ebg.6.1273028742160; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.55.6 with SMTP id s6mr1334052ebg.6.1273028742116; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f188.google.com (mail-qy0-f188.google.com [209.85.221.188]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si420499ewy.12.2010.05.04.20.05.40; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.188 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.188; Received: by qyk26 with SMTP id 26so6616518qyk.19 for ; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.181.138 with SMTP id by10mr3817566qcb.9.1273028739979; Tue, 04 May 2010 20:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.141.10 with HTTP; Tue, 4 May 2010 20:05:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2035EAA2-54C5-4259-BC7C-497A1CA2A4F5@mac.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 23:05:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.188 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364d3129d5db4a0485d0194b --0016364d3129d5db4a0485d0194b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think there was a justification of this somewhere in LFB having to do with "typing"; you can't really want a thing, you want to have a thing, to eat a thing, etc. Whenever you want a thing in English, then, you want something to happen or be true having to do with that thing. Whereas you can "like" a thing; I can't think of a way to abstract "liking a thing" in the way that you can abstract "wanting a thing" in general. On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 5:04 AM, tijlan wrote: > On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Reid wrote: > >> I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place items >> in the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows: >> >> lo se djica something desired => a state desired >> >> To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object. >> > > Yes, that's the official definition. But I don't see why it should not > include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 does. > > > lo te troci a method of trial => a method tried >> >> The existing wording sounds like "a method of testing", not >> "the way we tried to do it". >> > > {lo te troci} can also mean a method that "is to be tried", "is going to be > tried", "is being tried" etc., not only the preterite (past) "tried". I > suggest "method of effort" instead. > > > >> lo se troci something tried => ??? >> >> This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new food" >> or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I don't quite >> like it. >> > > Maybe "goal of effort". > > > >> lo te jimpe a subject of something understood => >> a subject understood about >> >> Trying to make the relation clearer. >> > > Maybe "topic of fact understood". > > > mu'o mi'e tijlan > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016364d3129d5db4a0485d0194b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think there was a justification of this somewhere in LFB having to do wit= h "typing"; you can't really want a thing, you want to have a= thing, to eat a thing, etc. Whenever you want a thing in English, then, yo= u want something to happen or be true having to do with that thing. Whereas= you can "like" a thing; I can't think of a way to abstract &= quot;liking a thing" in the way that you can abstract "wanting a = thing" in general.

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 5:04 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com= > wrote:
On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Rei= d <kpreid@mac.com> wrote:
I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place items in= the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows:

=A0lo se djica =A0 something desired =3D> a state desired

=A0 =A0To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object.

Yes, that's the official definition. But I don'= t see why it should not include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 do= es.


=A0lo te troci =A0 a method of trial =3D> a method tried

=A0 =A0The existing wording sounds like "a method of testing", n= ot
=A0 =A0"the way we tried to do it".
<= br>{lo te troci} can also mean a method that "is to be tried", &q= uot;is going to be tried", "is being tried" etc., not only t= he preterite (past) "tried". I suggest "method of effort&quo= t; instead.

=A0
=A0lo se troci =A0 something tried =3D> ???

=A0 =A0This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new fo= od"
=A0 =A0or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I = don't quite
=A0 =A0like it.

Maybe "goal of effort&= quot;.

=A0
=A0lo te jimpe =A0 a subject of something understood =3D>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a subject understood about

=A0 =A0Trying to make the relation clearer.
Maybe "topic of fact understood".


mu'o mi'e t= ijlan

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