From lojban-beginners+bncCN673cmqFBD8oqjfBBoEbx4CnQ@googlegroups.com Tue May 11 19:25:20 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OC1dG-0000AL-R2; Tue, 11 May 2010 19:25:20 -0700 Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18sf4502554gwj.16 for ; Tue, 11 May 2010 19:25:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:organization :user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qbhouKSlZPmEz5zArfLStUL0NPTcAF5UzgBBxuC9wBg=; b=UvG36JaHG/Kx1x6yw8/lp3pPC6QR097+vf4bdFdF8XRAMn7QX7Y8BVzbemVjDSFXoq yBL9T2vosjPkrZ21wz2QWXsenFpJ/zA7xruBJLjJCL8bLcDFOuTuHJr5ock6jBZRiHvP N17wvO+dGkHgJbqggfpIJg/3h4kO76PyIZVLU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:x-accept-language :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=raqORF+cMtLayKu+QOmVG3zp6bW9WvmEzzwe0HCE3+RaZSLsk1MEfYQtu+QeUilZr8 ta++iUTGKQoLG3QzlT+UPGqPXDMXcrzgOzRTu5B/8uGKF6RjEy7H1Pvz/2Vh6S74SafV ewTsGB+vclNxdxw/oCcg9y4pXo7c3QTrnmXmk= Received: by 10.91.181.11 with SMTP id i11mr523447agp.44.1273631100949; Tue, 11 May 2010 19:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.39.13 with SMTP id r13ls10691499agj.5.p; Tue, 11 May 2010 19:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr7748323agd.6.1273631097501; Tue, 11 May 2010 19:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr7748320agd.6.1273631097430; Tue, 11 May 2010 19:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao106.cox.net (eastrmmtao106.cox.net [68.230.240.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si746689ywh.13.2010.05.11.19.24.57; Tue, 11 May 2010 19:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.48 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.48; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100512022457.QJTW26523.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Tue, 11 May 2010 22:24:57 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id GSQl1e00J2hfrC602SQl0J; Tue, 11 May 2010 22:24:57 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=1tC8gCE8abT1P00P8zsYPuKJ/q6rKOuccKMKwfwf08U= c=1 sm=1 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=1Ofhylq4UdbYut4_0X0A:9 a=RW8iTF4Vjnb9c-6VwHgA:7 a=HZQYWTHJjNPPgpcV823xD0RuYLEA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BEA119C.2030400@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:25:32 -0400 From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] sei vs to References: In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.48 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed tijlan wrote: > {sei} and {to}... When should we use which? What is the difference > between a discursive element and a parenthetical element? "to" is a normal parenthetical, and can be used pretty much anywhere for any purpose that you would use a parenthetical in English or another language. You can talk about anything in a to parenthetical. sei is specifically for metalinguistic discourse about the sentence or text. So in addition to any grammatical hooks that it provides, it has a semantic implication that to does not have. It was specifically added to the language because of certain textual features in complex English text that didn't have a clearly corresponding structure in Lojban, but was later expanded to allow for on-the-fly creation of novel discursives and attitudinals (members of UI), in the same way that fi'o is used to allow on-the-fly creation of novel sumti tcita/modal tags (members of BAI), from a corresponding bridi. The original usages of sei were a)embedded in quoted text, the identification of the speaker, and any supplemental information included therewith ("Think Tom Swiftie adverbs", lojbab said self-referentially, "and look at this quote for such an English example". (You will find the original use of sei for this purpose in Athelstan''s 1990 translation of Saki's "The Open Window", somewhere in the Lojban texts page, which IIRC has lots of conversation as the various speakers walk down the hall, open windows, look out through them, all expressed in comma delimited phrases embedded within the quotes in the English original.) b) The translation of self-referential paradoxes, of the "This sentence is false" variety, non-paradoxically by jumping to a new metalinguistics level inside the sei construct. dei jetnu sei jitfa The times when you need a se'u more or less correspond to the times when you need a fe'u on the end of a fi'o - generally if you've opened a complex multilevel structure inside the construct that you wish to make sure is terminated so it doesn't suck up something accidentally from the main bridi level. This most commonly occurs when there are abstraction sumti in the construct. You can probably end these with kei, but to be sure, use se'u/fe'u. lojbab -- Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.